Improbability of the "Refinement" Theory

[guy b]

Here is what you said:

If you try to enforce a universal strategy then you end up compromising the benefits of certain physical attributes

So essentially the strategy is "let the circumstances of the fight dictate your strategy

Here is what I said:

The VT strategy is all about the application of pressure (loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chun)- space pressure, time pressure, distance pressure. We intercept and cut into the attack, disrupting the opponent. We apply forward pressure, cutting the way and eating up space. We force mistakes from the opponent in this way, i.e. they show us how to hit them (kiu loi kiu seung) which we do using the whole body as one, and if not then we create openings by other means (mor kiu ji jou kiu). At all times we pressure the centre rather than chase hands. By linking neutraliation and striking (lin siu dai da) we defend automatically as we attack, which increases the time and space pressure on the opponent, making us appear faster than we really are

Not a semantic difference. WSL VT has one strategy as above. It isn't dictated by the circumstances of the fight. Tactics are dictated by the circumstances of the fight, not strategy.

 

[Juany118]

Here is what you said:





Here is what I said:



Not a semantic difference. WSL VT has one strategy as above. It isn't dictated by the circumstances of the fight. Tactics are dictated by the circumstances of the fight, not strategy.

First I said universal strategy because you were, earlier, confabulating the two, which I have pointed out repeatedly.

As to you last point, my last post said exactly that the circumstances of a fight determine tactics. So again what's your point, other than to take the words I said, in various ways, multiple times (which you initially said were false) and try to make them you own.

You do however miss one thing and that is the fact that the available tactics do indeed influence the strategy. The two basically synergize. As an example; before effective combat aircraft existed air superiority simply wasn't a thing. Tactical tools will influence strategy.

The same applies in Martial arts. The tools available for tactical deployment do indeed influence the strategic foundation of a MA. BJJ and WC/VT certainly have a different strategic foundation, as an example.

 

[Lobo66]

I agree with your distinction between strategy and tactics, Juany.

Perhaps we can avoid confusion by limiting our use of jargon and using more familiar words.

Like "goals" (short and long-term) and the "means" to implement them.

Seen like this it becomes clear that changing goals often require different means.

WSLVT is best suited for a situation where the assault or fight is already on. Your focused awareness has failed you, or your attempts to use dipomacy and de-escalation have had no effect and the aggresor is committed to or has already begun his attack. Maybe you've even been hit and injured already.

In this situation the short-term goal is to disrupt the perpetrator's attack with our own actions/reflexes. This will send him back to the beginning of the OODA loop and allow us the time to gain a superior position to carry out an effective counter-attack. The means of regaining position and counter-attacking are the nuts and bolts of WSLVT and have already been described.

The long-term goal in an assault or self-defense situation is often a) survival and/or b) escape.
If our counter-attack has been successful and we've knocked down the perp, our short term goal must change to safely leaving the area and alerting the authorities.

Sometimes WSLVT skills are ill-suited for certain situations. I'm thinking in terms of restraining, detaining and/or arresting - things that LEOs have to deal with. Or breaking up a fight between two people. In these situations you can't just go in and smash the crap out of someone's face. You need other means to meet your goals. This is where a knowledge of grappling and body-locking comes in to play. And these are not part of the WSLVT curriculum that I know.

Or perhaps you've been attacked and knocked down to the ground. You're now facing a standing opponent. Your gaol is to regain your feet as fast and safely as possible. What are the means to do this? What if you can't and the aggressor is standing over you trying to smash your head in? By what means will you protect yourself? It's ovious that in situations like these you need some basic ground skills. Also not included in the WSLVT system.

 

[Juany118]

I agree with your distinction between strategy and tactics, Juany.

Perhaps we can avoid confusion by limiting our use of jargon and using more familiar words.

Like "goals" (short and long-term) and the "means" to implement them.

Seen like this it becomes clear that changing goals often require different means.

WSLVT is best suited for a situation where the assault or fight is already on. Your focused awareness has failed you, or your attempts to use dipomacy and de-escalation have had no effect and the aggresor is committed to or has already begun his attack. Maybe you've even been hit and injured already.

In this situation the short-term goal is to disrupt the perpetrator's attack with our own actions/reflexes. This will send him back to the beginning of the OODA loop and allow us the time to gain a superior position to carry out an effective counter-attack. The means of regaining position and counter-attacking are the nuts and bolts of WSLVT and have already been described.

The long-term goal in an assault or self-defense situation is often a) survival and/or b) escape.
If our counter-attack has been successful and we've knocked down the perp, our short term goal must change to safely leaving the area and alerting the authorities.

Sometimes WSLVT skills are ill-suited for certain situations. I'm thinking in terms of restraining, detaining and/or arresting - things that LEOs have to deal with. Or breaking up a fight between two people. In these situations you can't just go in and smash the crap out of someone's face. You need other means to meet your goals. This is where a knowledge of grappling and body-locking comes in to play. And these are not part of the WSLVT curriculum that I know.

Or perhaps you've been attacked and knocked down to the ground. You're now facing a standing opponent. Your gaol is to regain your feet as fast and safely as possible. What are the means to do this? What if you can't and the aggressor is standing over you trying to smash your head in? By what means will you protect yourself? It's ovious that in situations like these you need some basic ground skills. Also not included in the WSLVT system.

Oh I completely agree with you on the fact that WSLVT is ill suited for LE, it's the main reason I stopped studying it. There are times for striking but 90% of the time the striking is a set up for takedowns and restraints.

I think the other point you made, disrupting the OODA loop (which also applies to my "set up" scenario) is consistent. The same principle applies to Aikido as well (the first Asian FMA I studied). That is why I think, to an extent, semantics. One person can say they are imposing their will on the other, the other can say they are flowing, even with a counter, because the counter wouldn't be possible if there hadn't been an attack in the first place.

As an example in another art; when you throw someone in Aikido you can say you imposed your will. You moved out of the opponent's way, you applied principles of leverage to augment the opponent's momentum, he fall down go boom. Or you can say what my Sensei said at the time "Aikido is the practice of civility and so we are never so rude as to get in the way of our opponent. Instead we step and and assist them on their way." Same action, same result simply semantics. Now maybe because my WSLVT teacher didn't follow PB's playbook is why he explained it via the literal meaning of the quote I posted, but it just seems like we are arguing semantics at this point to some degree.

 

[KPM]

Like "goals" (short and long-term) and the "means" to implement them. Seen like this it becomes clear that changing goals often require different means.

---Good summary Lobo66. I have been thinking of it all along like this as well.


In this situation the short-term goal is to disrupt the perpetrator's attack with our own actions/reflexes. This will send him back to the beginning of the OODA loop and allow us the time to gain a superior position to carry out an effective counter-attack. The means of regaining position and counter-attacking are the nuts and bolts of WSLVT and have already been described.

---From what Guy and LFJ have written in the past, the impression I have formed (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that the long-term goal of WSLVT....as in any martial art....is to defeat the opponent or at least escape the encounter with as little damage as possible. But the means to affect this, or the short-term goal for WSLVT, is to strike or "punch out" the opponent. They have made numerous statements in the past to the effect that WSLVT is "all about the punch." And there is nothing wrong with this! But when it has been pointed out to them that this is a somewhat "specialized", "narrow", or "one-dimensional" approach they have protested. I say this in comparison to other martial arts...including other versions of Wing Chun....that do have body manipulations, joint locks, and such. For these "others" the short-term goal is often to control or disrupt the opponent's balance in some way so that they cannot effectively strike back. Punching may be part of that, but so are various Kum Na-type techniques. So some lineages see Chi Sau as having an aspect of training sensitivity to be able to establish some kind of control or dominant position over the opponent....as well as to detect or create openings for the punch. So it has more than one dimension.....the punch, and therefore more than one tactic available.



Sometimes WSLVT skills are ill-suited for certain situations. I'm thinking in terms of restraining, detaining and/or arresting - things that LEOs have to deal with. Or breaking up a fight between two people. In these situations you can't just go in and smash the crap out of someone's face. You need other means to meet your goals. This is where a knowledge of grappling and body-locking comes in to play. And these are not part of the WSLVT curriculum that I know.

---I have pointed out more than once in the past that you cannot always see the use of your martial art as "smashing the crap out of someone's face." I've even used the analogy of "drunk uncle Ed." If you're drunk uncle Ed is with you at a family gathering and trying to get you to "show him your Kung Fu!" then it is probably best to be able to divert, control and manipulate him without hurting him. My Wing Chun can do that. But when pointed out this was generally scoffed at by certain people.

 

[LFJ]

But when it has been pointed out to them that this is a somewhat "specialized", "narrow", or "one-dimensional" approach they have protested.

You state this, negatively, claiming WSL made VT so, thus suggesting WSLVT is "missing" all this good stuff.

If you're drunk uncle Ed is with you at a family gathering and trying to get you to "show him your Kung Fu!" then it is probably best to be able to divert, control and manipulate him without hurting him. My Wing Chun can do that. But when pointed out this was generally scoffed at by certain people.

I can do that without kung-fu. Just plant him on the couch and leave the room.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have pointed out more than once in the past that you cannot always see the use of your martial art as "smashing the crap out of someone's face." I've even used the analogy of "drunk uncle Ed." If you're drunk uncle Ed is with you at a family gathering and trying to get you to "show him your Kung Fu!" then it is probably best to be able to divert, control and manipulate him without hurting him. My Wing Chun can do that. But when pointed out this was generally scoffed at by certain people.

I actually trained alongside a guy who took up NGA for that very reason. He had significant experience in a striking art (TKD, I think), and a cousin got drunk at a family reunion and basically forced him to "show his stuff", giving a serious enough attack he had to defend or get hurt. Of course, he hurt the guy, and was looking for a second art that gave him some other options.

 

[guy b]

So it has more than one dimension.....the punch, and therefore more than one tactic available

WSL VT has many tactics, one strategy

have pointed out more than once in the past that you cannot always see the use of your martial art as "smashing the crap out of someone's face." I've even used the analogy of "drunk uncle Ed." If you're drunk uncle Ed is with you at a family gathering and trying to get you to "show him your Kung Fu!" then it is probably best to be able to divert, control and manipulate him without hurting him. My Wing Chun can do that. But when pointed out this was generally scoffed at by certain people.

The idea of long and hard training in order to cope with drunk uncle Ed is ludicrous.

 

[KPM]

I actually trained alongside a guy who took up NGA for that very reason. He had significant experience in a striking art (TKD, I think), and a cousin got drunk at a family reunion and basically forced him to "show his stuff", giving a serious enough attack he had to defend or get hurt. Of course, he hurt the guy, and was looking for a second art that gave him some other options.

Thanks! Looks like you understood my point, even if certain others didn't!

 

[Juany118]

Thanks! Looks like you understood my point, even if certain others didn't!

Well sadly that happens if anything that WSLVT isn't optimized for. I raised knifes and other melee weapons and it was first "the % is so low it's laughable." Later changed to "% chance to defend is low" which then changed to "use BJJ."

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[Nobody Important]

Well sadly that happens if anything that WSLVT isn't optimized for. I raised knifes and other melee weapons and it was first "the % is so low it's laughable." Later changed to "% chance to defend is low" which then changed to "use BJJ."

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Yes, the conversation has been had over & over. When an art is relegated to a singular use it has become specialized. Optimization and refinement are an inseparable part of how it became to be. Much more likely, that since WSLVT came a 100 years after the ancestral method it is based on, that it was refined to what it is and not that it was originally that way to begin with. Especially when being propagated by an individual incapable of grabbing effectively. But some will continue to argue that logic.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, the conversation has been had over & over. When an art is relegated to a singular use it has become specialized. Optimization and refinement are an inseparable part of how it became to be. Much more likely, that since WSLVT came a 100 years after the ancestral method it is based on, that it was refined to what it is and not that it was originally that way to begin with. Especially when being propagated by an individual incapable of grabbing effectively. But some will continue to argue that logic.

It's also even more likely because we know YM refined the art. So we have the following chain of events.
1. YM refined what he knew.
2. He has multiple students, including his own sons, all saying they teach what YM taught and no actual verifiable evidence to prove otherwise.
3. While all of them have some variations WSL is the only one, that I know of, that lacks Chin Na.

So if all students Have X but one, we either have to believe that a secret teaching, that WSL never made claim to, occurred makes his VT the True YM VT... Or, and here is where Occam's razor comes in...

A combination of the facts we know about YM's teaching methods + refinement = the differences.

We even know as fact that WSL is capable of such refinement. He went to great lengths in his face teaching of PB, refining WSLVT so a man with only one hand would be equally effective.