I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Kung Fu Wang]

taking on board the principles that have been developed by the people who are good at it.

This is the main point of this discussion. There is nothing wrong to study the "anti-grappling" from the grappling art. I'm sure a wrestler would also like to learn the striking art from any striking art system. Since the grappling art has spent a long time to develop the "anti-grappling", the accumulated knowledge is stored in a huge database already. Why not just take that information out of the existing database. There is no need to re-create it.

A simple example, in stand up wrestling, if your opponent wants to wrap your arm with

- "over hook", all you need is to rotate your arm in the same direction as your opponent's arm does.
- "under hook", all you need is to straight your arm vertically upward.

Your opponent's arm will just rotate into the thin air, not be able to touch your arm, hook on nothing, and fail his "over hook" or "under hook". Since your grappling art opponent fails to obtain his effective "clinch", your powerful head punch can still dominate the fight.

 

[Jake104]

There is. But you are working backwards. You are trying to make wrestling and ground work fit the principles that you are familiar with.

Rather than taking on board the principles that have been developed by the people who are good at it.

This is what fundamentally makes anti grappling the disaster it generally is.

Sorry but this makes no sense? You agree there is, but then I'm working it backwards? How do you know I'm not working it forwards? I train with real grapplers. Good ones at that. They must be playing a joke on me by teaching me backwards? Dang it! They must be just messing with the Wing Chun dude again?

I'm just going to leave by saying this. There is a big world out there beyond what you see on Youtube. I have experienced some really good martial arts of all varieties in person. Some of those arts I might of had a bad impression from what I may have seen online. Only to find out how wrong I was, once I had seen it done in person by a competent practitioner of that art. People I meet FTF usually have that same surprised look on there face when I show Wing Chun in a not so internetty way. I've also experienced some excellent WC in person..Different approaches, I didn't even knew existed.

 

[Jake104]

This is the main point of this discussion. There is nothing wrong to study the "anti-grappling" from the grappling art. I'm sure a wrestler would also like to learn the striking art from any striking art system. Since the grappling art has spent a long time to develop the "anti-grappling", the accumulated knowledge is stored in a huge database already. Why not just take that information out of the existing database. There is no need to re-create it.

A simple example, in stand up wrestling, if your opponent wants to wrap your arm with

- "over hook", all you need is to rotate your arm in the same direction as your opponent's arm does.
- "under hook", all you need is to straight your arm vertically upward.

Your opponent's arm will just rotate into the thin air, not be able to touch your arm, hook on nothing, and fail his "over hook" or "under hook". Since your grappling art opponent fails to obtain his effective "clinch", your powerful head punch can still dominate the fight.

Good post!

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry but this makes no sense? You agree there is, but then I'm working it backwards? How do you know I'm not working it forwards? I train with real grapplers. Good ones at that. They must be playing a joke on me by teaching me backwards? Dang it! They must be just messing with the Wing Chun dude again?

I'm just going to leave by saying this. There is a big world out there beyond what you see on Youtube. I have experienced some really good martial arts of all varieties in person. Some of those arts I might of had a bad impression from what I may have seen online. Only to find out how wrong I was, once I had seen it done in person by a competent practitioner of that art. People I meet FTF usually have that same surprised look on there face when I show Wing Chun in a not so internetty way. I've also experienced some excellent WC in person..Different approaches, I didn't even knew existed.

No one is saying that Wing Chun itself is bad, useless, deficient, whatever. We're simply talking about those particular examples shown in the OP. The people in those vids are clueless when it comes to techniques against grapplers. To then go around and say that those bad techniques would work against advanced grapplers is even worse.

Keep practicing with the grapplers. Just doing that alone is 100x better than what the people in those videos have done.

 

[Danny T]

The people in those vids are clueless when it comes to techniques against grapplers...

...Keep practicing with the grapplers. Just doing that alone is 100x better than what the people in those videos have done.

In full agreement.

 

[Jake104]

ME TOO!

Not yelling I just talk loud!

 

[ShotoNoob]

From a wrestler point of view, If you use

- wide stance, you opponent can take you down by "single leg".
- narrow stance, your opponent can take you down by "double legs".

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Thanks for the quick lesson, which I didn't replicate your whole quote. I'm certain that some principled instruction from someone such as yourself, combined with the principle of tai sabaki enshrined throughout traditional a karate training, some of the ant-grappling skills would come to karate life rather quickly.
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Of course one must have paid attention to the karate curriculum proper, which most claiming to practice karate do not. Too busy showing off how they can bust up that heavy bag. One reason why I never do heavy bag training....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've also shone the light on why sport karate fighters are prone to take downs....
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Solution, don't train karate like a physical sport. Karate is a mental discipline, based on principles, not a menu of different ways to do reflexively do layups....

 

[drop bear]

Sorry but this makes no sense? You agree there is, but then I'm working it backwards? How do you know I'm not working it forwards? I train with real grapplers. Good ones at that. They must be playing a joke on me by teaching me backwards? Dang it! They must be just messing with the Wing Chun dude again?

I'm just going to leave by saying this. There is a big world out there beyond what you see on Youtube. I have experienced some really good martial arts of all varieties in person. Some of those arts I might of had a bad impression from what I may have seen online. Only to find out how wrong I was, once I had seen it done in person by a competent practitioner of that art. People I meet FTF usually have that same surprised look on there face when I show Wing Chun in a not so internetty way. I've also experienced some excellent WC in person..Different approaches, I didn't even knew existed.

Ok. Backwards because instead of finding out what works and making it wing chun. You are trying to force wing chun principles on every other situation.

Now if there are elements of wing chun that works. Then good. I am happy to adopt them and learn from anybody who is any good.

What I wont do is mangle a working wing chun technique because it does not fit in with mma concepts. If it does the job it is the tool for the Job.

No baggage no preconceptions.

 

[drop bear]

I've also shone the light on why sport karate fighters are prone to take downs....
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Solution, don't train karate like a physical sport. Karate is a mental discipline, based on principles, not a menu of different ways to do reflexively do layups....

Because if they don't train to defend takedowns they will have no idea what they are doing.

The same as if we said karate is not all that good if you are drowning. Because if they don't train to swim. So on and so on.

 

[geezer]

Ok. Backwards because instead of finding out what works and making it wing chun. You are trying to force wing chun principles on every other situation.

Actually, I think there's a misunderstanding here. I think we are talking about more universal fighting concepts as taught in the DTE system.

Jake has a long background in WC (different branch from mine). He also trains DTE MMA. I also train some DTE, and it's concepts have helped my WC and my Eskrima. They also apply to grappling. They are not "WC" concepts. They are martial arts concepts, . DTE is very functional, and the various coaches at the gym specialize in striking, grappling and weapons. Wherever possible they test with full-on resistance. Nothing like the stuff in the OP. Honest.

OK. I admit it. My DTE experience is doing something to my WC, evolving it into a more functional art for me ... maybe kinda similar to what you see with Alan Orr's WC? So I guess that actually does relate back to the OP.

Yes, like the OP I guess you could say the whole thing 'Orrifies me!

 

[Kwan Sau]

Actually, I think there's a misunderstanding here. I think we are talking about more universal fighting concepts as taught in the DTE system.

Jake has a long background in WC (different branch from mine). He also trains DTE MMA. I also train some DTE, and it's concepts have helped my WC and my Eskrima. They also apply to grappling. They are not "WC" concepts. They are martial arts concepts, . DTE is very functional, and the various coaches at the gym specialize in striking, grappling and weapons. Wherever possible they test with full-on resistance. Nothing like the stuff in the OP. Honest.

OK. I admit it. My DTE experience is doing something to my WC, evolving it into a more functional art for me ... maybe kinda similar to what you see with Alan Orr's WC? So I guess that actually does relate back to the OP.

Yes, like the OP I guess you could say the whole thing 'Orrifies me!

Sorry, but what does DTE mean (?)

 

[Danny T]

Sorry, but what does DTE mean (?)

I believe it was Direct Torres Eskrima and became Direct Torres Extreme - Fighting Arts

 

[geezer]

I believe it was Direct Torres Eskrima and became Direct Torres Extreme - Fighting Arts

Quite so.

I don't get to train with the DTE guys regularly and I claim no rank in their system, but whenever I can I get together with them (like this morning). It gives me a really interesting outside perspective on my personal WC and Eskrima. Martin Torres and I got to know each other while training with Rene Latosa back in the early 80s. Martin is an exceptional martial artist and I really appreciate some of the insights he's shared with me.

 

[Jake104]

It was fun today Geezer. I got to show Geezer my infamous tan sao today. Haha! Most deadliest tan sao ever!

 

[drop bear]

Quite so.

I don't get to train with the DTE guys regularly and I claim no rank in their system, but whenever I can I get together with them (like this morning). It gives me a really interesting outside perspective on my personal WC and Eskrima. Martin Torres and I got to know each other while training with Rene Latosa back in the early 80s. Martin is an exceptional martial artist and I really appreciate some of the insights he's shared with me.

Who have they got fighting?

 

[Jake104]

There's a Facebook page DTE MMA check it out for yourself. They've Coached fighters for Rage in the cage, boxing and recently in April at Grand Canyon State Jiujitsu tournament in Phoenix. The Fighters did really well winning there classes or at least making the podium. Other then that I can't name drop because sport fighting is not really my world. I just know they do very well in competition.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Because if they don't train to defend takedowns they will have no idea what they are doing.

The same as if we said karate is not all that good if you are drowning. Because if they don't train to swim. So on and so on.

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That's exactly like I mean in principle. Putting on an open workout that highlights striking at a partner holding focus mights, like that will prepare your for an MMA match. Silly repetition of sport practice.
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I'm drowning in the stupidity of those practicing convention over principle....

 

[drop bear]

There's a Facebook page DTE MMA check it out for yourself. They've Coached fighters for Rage in the cage, boxing and recently in April at Grand Canyon State Jiujitsu tournament in Phoenix. The Fighters did really well winning there classes or at least making the podium. Other then that I can't name drop because sport fighting is not really my world. I just know they do very well in competition.

Ok. Their mma instructor is haroon lais apparently. If my google fu is sound.

Just so you know.

 

[drop bear]

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That's exactly like I mean in principle. Putting on an open workout that highlights striking at a partner holding focus mights, like that will prepare your for an MMA match. Silly repetition of sport practice.
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I'm drowning in the stupidity of those practicing convention over principle....

Except that is the training method of successful martial artists. So we are looking at proven training methods and reflecting that.

If someone started dancing the Macarena instead of pad work and then started winning fights. Without preconceptions we would be seriously looking into dancing the Macarena.

It would have nothing to do with trying to get results from a concept we are hanging. On to in spite of evidence otherwise.

That is why when we look at that op vid. Wing chun has chain punching. So the solution to grappling must be chain punching. Otherwise it isn't chun.

It is the kung fu solution. And where sometime it might be incidentally correct. You cant guarantee it.

And when you are talking concepts like anti grappling you cant be sometimes or sort of correct. You don't ha e the depth of training to get away with it. (a lot of times you don't have the depth of training to get away with bjj principles)

You need the simplest highest percentage movements that you can get away with. Because for the main that is all you are going to get to use.