I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[ShotoNoob]

No. Just putting your comment in context.

Pad work is hardly a mma only thing.

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Right, karate schools use them all the time. That why guys like you can point out how as k-man would say, MODERN karate is no good.
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We are then training the body alone to re actively strike a phony, soft, pliable target. What we traditional karateka want is the KIME to snap the attacker's wrist, trying grappling now.... or crack assailant's ribs--try manhandling me in a bear hug now. Or better yet, reverse punch smash the grappler's face in as you come in, dropping your to your knees ripe for a finishing front kick to the jaw (broken, teeth laying all over the floor).
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The traditional karate anti-grappling in theory (or WC) for that matter, is the KIME to go with a response wherever you go with your grappling...
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Good luck against that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

If one wishes to train karate effectively, it's not about full contact sparring. It's about reading, understanding & practicing the ENTIRE traditional karate curriculum. Including the grappling-SD defense skills presented.
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Not doing, "look how ronda rousey & her big name Muay thai MMA big name coach are using SO-AND-SO focus mitts"--monkey-see-monkey do.
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Little Debbie is off to a great SHOTOKAN KARATE start, IMHO.... @ beating Ronda Rousey the traditional karate way. None of Rousey's MMA-focus mitt / MMA-grappling opponents are faring too well.... Some really massive fails there....

 

[geezer]

Man, Shoto-Noob has me totally confused with this last chain of posts. I'm not getting what "little Debbie"" and her cute board breaks have to do with grappling, auntie grappling, uncle grappling.... On the other hand, I do appreciate Drop Bear's wrestling clips. That's easy to understand.

 

[drop bear]

Man, Shoto-Noob has me totally confused with this last chain of posts. I'm not getting what "little Debbie"" and her cute board breaks have to do with grappling, auntie grappling, uncle grappling.... On the other hand, I do appreciate Drop Bear's wrestling clips. That's easy to understand.

No dramas. There are areas that wrestling works a bit better for mma. And why we tend to do sub wrestling rather than bjj.

But most anti grapple people when they are not making stuff up are getting their grappling knowledge from bjj. And sometimes the focus can be a bit wrong.

Isolating that idea into one move would be the double leg over arm bar from mount. I almost would not do that as a self defence technique. But it is incredibly effective and a very common submission.

Now with all of that. Bjj incorporates wrestling when they can.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are areas that wrestling works a bit better for mma.

If we look at the following clips, we can see that the Chinese wrestling may work even better than the western wrestling for MMA. The reason are:

- how to apply striking, and
- how to deal with striking,

are already integrated into the Chinese wrestling training. The problem is the Chinese wrestling has not yet became a popular MA system in the western world.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Man, Shoto-Noob has me totally confused with this last chain of posts. I'm not getting what "little Debbie"" and her cute board breaks have to do with grappling, auntie grappling, uncle grappling.... On the other hand, I do appreciate Drop Bear's wrestling clips. That's easy to understand.

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Yeah, 'cause you're a technical guy who's into physical technique. Then there's criticism of WC anti-grappling based on it's presentation of physical technique, a picture of that.
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If you want to look at physical technique and sell people on that, you're not evaluating TMA through the proper lens....

 

[ShotoNoob]

If we look at the following clips, we can see that the Chinese wrestling may work even better than the western wrestling for MMA. The reason are:

- how to apply striking, and
- how to deal with striking,

are already integrated into the Chinese wrestling training. The problem is the Chinese wrestling has not yet became a popular MA system in the western world.

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I always thought the CMA were more integrated than the traditional karates as a whole. Having said that, the reason they are not popular (IMO) is the American MA preoccupation with physical drills & physical technique over learning the underlying system.
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So you're looking for trouble in presenting CMA when viewers can't get there hands around the "little debbie" lesson.
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Good luck with that....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here are some examples that if you can knock down your opponent with your kicks or punches, you don't need any "anti-grappling". But if your kicks and punches fail to knock down your opponent then "anti-grappling" will come into place.

 

[Phobius]

Not sure I get the Debbie talk, a little girl doing a good focused strike, in terms of anti-grappling.
Since I believe the discussion is about anti-grappling and not how to prevent grappling from occurring it seems out of place. If you can knock down your opponent before he may ever get you into a clinch then 'anti-grappling' perhaps is not needed. I still do not see a technique that would avoid grappling be called anti-grappling.

Having a technique that avoids a scenario is not the same as having a technique that may help resolve a scenario. The first may be perfect when fighting but since most of us just prepare with practise I guess most want to train in resolving situation instead.

Sorry if I misunderstood the whole discussion about Debbie, very possible...

I see much value and interest in these discussions, especially since I myself want to learn more about transitioning between them unhindered.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Having a technique that avoids a scenario is not the same as having a technique that may help resolve a scenario.

Agree! For example, when your opponent tries to get a clinch on you, you can

- break that clinch, move back, and continue your striking game. or
- take advantage on that clinch, and ... In order to be able to do so, you will need some grappling knowledge/experience.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure I get the Debbie talk, a little girl doing a good focused strike, in terms of anti-grappling.
Since I believe the discussion is about anti-grappling and not how to prevent grappling from occurring it seems out of place. If you can knock down your opponent before he may ever get you into a clinch then 'anti-grappling' perhaps is not needed. I still do not see a technique that would avoid grappling be called anti-grappling.

Having a technique that avoids a scenario is not the same as having a technique that may help resolve a scenario. The first may be perfect when fighting but since most of us just prepare with practise I guess most want to train in resolving situation instead.

Sorry if I misunderstood the whole discussion about Debbie, very possible...

I see much value and interest in these discussions, especially since I myself want to learn more about transitioning between them unhindered.

Grappling occurs before the clinch. Like striking occurs before the punch or kick.

Because you set these things up. You don't just wade forwards and hope.

So anti grappling occurs at that set up stage as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Grappling occurs before the clinch. Like striking occurs before the punch or kick.

Because you set these things up. You don't just wade forwards and hope.

So anti grappling occurs at that set up stage as well.

That is called to "have a plan" which is the opposite of the concept of "formless".

When you execute your "plan",

1. A kick is used to set up a punch.
2. A punch is used to set up a clinch.
3. A clinch is used to set up a take down.
4. A take down is used to set up a ...

Of course you can by pass 1 and 2 and go to 3 directly. Here is an example and I like to call it "octopus" strategy. The "leg bridge" is used to prevent your opponent's kick.

 

[drop bear]

If one wishes to train karate effectively, it's not about full contact sparring. It's about reading, understanding & practicing the ENTIRE traditional karate curriculum. Including the grappling-SD defense skills presented.
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Not doing, "look how ronda rousey & her big name Muay thai MMA big name coach are using SO-AND-SO focus mitts"--monkey-see-monkey do.
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Little Debbie is off to a great SHOTOKAN KARATE start, IMHO.... @ beating Ronda Rousey the traditional karate way. None of Rousey's MMA-focus mitt / MMA-grappling opponents are faring too well.... Some really massive fails there....

Ok. I do know what you are talking about.

And nobody is going to beat ronda rousey with your karate superpowers.

Fighting is physical. You keep saying there is some sort of mental edge that you train that nobody else trains. But it is fooey.

There is no evidence of it working.

A person who looses a fight using another method is not evidence your method works. You have to prove your method based on its own merits. And it does not have any.

I am sorry but it just doesn't.

 

[drop bear]

That is called to "have a plan" which is the opposite of the concept of "formless".

When you execute your "plan",

1. A kick is used to set up a punch.
2. A punch is used to set up a clinch.
3. A clinch is used to set up a take down.
4. A take down is used to set up a arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
5. ...

Of course if you are good, you can by pass 1 and 2 and go to 3 directly. Here is an example and I like to call it "octopus" strategy.

All formless is a bit silly though. Sort of.

I will use driving a car as the metaphor. The plan is your destination. Then you make other plans like navigating traffic. The formlessness is the gear changes,clutch,breaks and so on.

You need both at once.

 

[geezer]

Yeah, 'cause you're a technical guy who's into physical technique.

Huh? I thought I was a WC guy.

Then there's criticism of WC anti-grappling based on it's presentation of physical technique, a picture of that.

Here's a picture of that:

T
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If you want to look at physical technique and sell people on that, you're not evaluating TMA through the proper lens....

OK. what's the proper lens?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sun Zi said, "You have to understand yourself, and also understand your opponent, you can then win every battles." If grapplers have to understand jab, cross, hook, uppercut, should strikers also have to understand what grapplers may do?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Huh? I thought I was a WC guy.
OK. what's the proper lens?

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Not taking oneself so seriously. I can see there's a lot invested in the SD approach here @ MT.
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I offered a perspective that's not your track.... Bailing T.

 

[geezer]

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Not taking oneself so seriously. I can see there's a lot invested in the SD approach here @ MT.
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I offered a perspective that's not your track.... Bailing T.

OK. I promise not to take myself so seriously.

Seriously!!!

 

[r'n'r]

Well, like it or not, in a 1-on-1 fight(which I understand not everyone is training for), unless you can knock someone out before they take you down or prevent them from doing so, you are only as good as your BJJ/Judo/wrestling. And most MA's are terrible when it comes to ground fighting. I for one am glad to see people realize this and improve the system accordingly. After all, WC is not technique based, but principle based.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, like it or not, in a 1-on-1 fight(which I understand not everyone is training for), unless you can knock someone out before they take you down or prevent them from doing so, you are only as good as your BJJ/Judo/wrestling. And most MA's are terrible when it comes to ground fighting. I for one am glad to see people realize this and improve the system accordingly. After all, WC is not technique based, but principle based.

The problem is that the techniques aren't sound, and the training method is pretty useless.

Again, if you're so worried about grappling that you need to construct an entire sub-system to address it, you should probably learn grappling first. Preferably Bjj, since its so popular and technical.