I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Hanzou]

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Sheesh! Again-Try reading carefully and sort out who is saying what and when and to whom. I have never used the term "anti grappling" to describe what I do and I have not engaged you actively in conversation on this thread-just pointed out inaccuracies -sibling for sihing, Wong for
Fong.

Yet you brought it up in a thread pertaining anti-grappling, so while you don't use that terminology, clearly you're talking about WC techniques being used against a grappling opponent.

 

[Danny T]

Uh he said that his Sifu performed solid WC anti-grappling, and performed this anti-grappling at various seminars.

Solid WC anti-grappling is the unusual component, because every iteration of WC anti-grappling shown up to this point has not been solid. I simply asked for a video of one of these seminars because I wish to see this better form of WC anti-grappling.

Again there is this comprehension thing.

He never said his Sifu performed solid WC anti-grappling he stated: "Every year Sifu Augustine Fong has week long seminars in the beginning of May."
That was a response to your;
"Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere."
He is telling you They Do Seminars. You want seminars, they have them. He has stated several times (not in this thread) he does not do videos.

If you are truly interested in what they do attend one.

 

[Hanzou]

Again there is this comprehension thing.

He never said his Sifu performed solid WC anti-grappling he stated: "Every year Sifu Augustine Fong has week long seminars in the beginning of May."
That was a response to your;
"Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere."
He is telling you They Do Seminars. You want seminars, they have them. He has stated several times (not in this thread) he does not do videos.

If you are truly interested in what they do attend one.

You clearly didn't follow the entire conversation. He said that him and his siblings didn't perform anti-grappling like the OP, and he mentioned Sifu whatever as an example of this solid anti-grappling.

In any case, I'm clearly not going to get any examples of this solid anti-grappling, so I think it's best that we return to the original topic of why WC anti-grappling is ineffective and "horrific".

 

[geezer]

...so I think it's best that we return to the original topic of why WC anti-grappling is ineffective and "horrific".

Actually, I'd be a lot more interested in what YOU would recommend that strikers (WC, boxers, karateka and Muay Thaiguys) should learn to escape and recover if taken to the ground. Put it this way, if you were invited to give a weekend seminar to a mixed group of strikers on this topic, what basics would you share?

 

[drop bear]

Actually, I'd be a lot more interested in what YOU would recommend that strikers (WC, boxers, karateka and Muay Thaiguys) should learn to escape and recover if taken to the ground. Put it this way, if you were invited to give a weekend seminar to a mixed group of strikers on this topic, what basics would you share?

New thread?

 

[Hanzou]

Actually, I'd be a lot more interested in what YOU would recommend that strikers (WC, boxers, karateka and Muay Thaiguys) should learn to escape and recover if taken to the ground. Put it this way, if you were invited to give a weekend seminar to a mixed group of strikers on this topic, what basics would you share?

Shrimping, Bridging, and the Upa escape. Simple and effective.

 

[drop bear]

Shrimping, Bridging, and the Upa escape. Simple and effective.

There is also making striking as hard to deal with for a grappler as possible by figuring out what a grappler wants to achieve and exploit and denying him that.

(it was kind of the theory behind my grappling vs punching thread. But people decided to get butt hurt)

Here is some fun ideas.

More distance. Fight from further back so shots become more desperate.

Shorter combinations so you don't get tied up or clinched up. Strike then turn off.

Don't lead with kicks or they get grabbed.

Don't guillotine choke,downward elbow,knee in response to takedowns. Instead cross face over hook sprawl. Or stuff the head into the ground.

Don't back up against the cage because you cant sprawl.

Punch at the throat or chest. Still hurts and you cant change level through shots as easily.

And a fun new one. Don't go front leg to front leg because a grappler can make the shot a ton mote easily.

 

[Marnetmar]

^Wouldn't punching at the throat be illegal in an organized match or are we talking general self-defense here?

 

[drop bear]

^Wouldn't punching at the throat be illegal in an organized match or are we talking general self-defense here?

Nope punch away.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I have done a little bit of groundwork training in my school; one of the things we learned was shrimping and bridging when mounted, though I had to look up "bjj bridging" to recognize it because it was referred to by a different name. Also, we did not call what we were learning "anti-grappling'.

Like many posters who have already made the point, nearly all striking arts have techniques or methods to regain an upright position, and sometimes even dealing with a common thing like the mount or various takedowns. Are we going to do a witch hunt through every TMA and ridicule how something they teach would not be effective against a BJJ blue belt?

Saying "here is something you can use when an angry brawler tries to tackle you" or similar is a legitimate thing to say and more honest than implying the techniques are designed to be used against experienced grapplers. I would agree that if you want to out-grapple a grappler then there is no denying the value in just going and learning their game (i.e cross train). You might be surprised how many WC/WT would agree with that. If they are like me though, they don't want to grapple with a grappler though.

 

[Vajramusti]

Shrimping, Bridging, and the Upa escape. Simple and effective.

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Shrimping, bridging and upa can work... unless the opponent has well developed counters.
But good wing chun rather than fixed techniques against fixed positions can depend on
what we call body unification and chum kiu principles of turning and biu gee principles. Imo developing good wing chun structure including hand structure and biu ma can prevent going to the ground in the first place.

 

[Danny T]

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... including hand structure and biu ma can prevent going to the ground in the first place.

I agree with 'can' prevent however, in the reality of life 'can' also applies to the opponent taking the WC person to the ground or even the possibility of the WC person simply slipping, tripping, or being knocked to the ground. I know you understand that as well. It is what does the individual WC person have within his/her skill set that allows for good WC in that moment and during the time one is on the ground vs someone with experience in grappling on the ground.

 

[Vajramusti]

I agree with 'can' prevent however, in the reality of life 'can' also applies to the opponent taking the WC person to the ground or even the possibility of the WC person simply slipping, tripping, or being knocked to the ground. I know you understand that as well. It is what does the individual WC person have within his/her skill set that allows for good WC in that moment and during the time one is on the ground vs someone with experience in grappling on the ground.[/QUOTE
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Yup. The internalized "skill set" and the sense of coordinated movement are important factors.]

 

[Hanzou]

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Shrimping, bridging and upa can work... unless the opponent has well developed counters.

As a purple belt in Bjj, I still shrimp and bridge constantly. If you're afraid of dealing with someone who can counter you on that level, learn to grapple. It's really that simple.

But good wing chun rather than fixed techniques against fixed positions can depend on
what we call body unification and chum kiu principles of turning and biu gee principles. Imo developing good wing chun structure including hand structure and biu ma can prevent going to the ground in the first place.

My concern is that the anti-grapple techniques I'm seeing aren't even based on realistic takedowns or positions. You can believe that "Bui ma" can stop a takedown, but are you practicing with real wrestlers/grapplers to test that out? The "takedowns" in the OP were simply awful, and they were countered with no contact hand techniques.

Get out some gear, get someone who wrestles, and really try to stop the takedown.

 

[Kwan Sau]

My concern is that the anti-grapple techniques I'm seeing aren't even based on realistic takedowns

Why are you concerned since wing chun is not even the art you're learning?

 

[Danny T]

My concern is that the anti-grapple techniques I'm seeing aren't even based on realistic takedowns or positions. You can believe that "Bui ma" can stop a takedown, but are you practicing with real wrestlers/grapplers to test that out? The "takedowns" in the OP were simply awful, and they were countered with no contact hand techniques.

This I agree with.
The techniques shown are terrible, the attacks are unrealistic, and the take-downs are, as you state, simply awful.

 

[Flying Crane]

You didn't answer my question.

Again, I asked them for a video because it pertained to the topic, and it was unusual.

You didnt answer mine: where are your videos? Does this request make you uncomfortable?

 

[Hanzou]

There is also making striking as hard to deal with for a grappler as possible by figuring out what a grappler wants to achieve and exploit and denying him that.

(it was kind of the theory behind my grappling vs punching thread. But people decided to get butt hurt)

Here is some fun ideas.

More distance. Fight from further back so shots become more desperate.

Shorter combinations so you don't get tied up or clinched up. Strike then turn off.

Don't lead with kicks or they get grabbed.

Don't guillotine choke,downward elbow,knee in response to takedowns. Instead cross face over hook sprawl. Or stuff the head into the ground.

Don't back up against the cage because you cant sprawl.

Punch at the throat or chest. Still hurts and you cant change level through shots as easily.

And a fun new one. Don't go front leg to front leg because a grappler can make the shot a ton mote easily.

LoL! I thought Geezer wanted only the basics?

Nice list though. I agree.

 

[Hanzou]

Why are you concerned since wing chun is not even the art you're learning?

Because the portrayal of grappling in those vids is rather insulting to the art I practice.

 

[Steve]

Guys, for what it's worth, I've seen some great examples of different philosophies and techniques being used effectively to counter grappling. The examples of the chen tai chi guys sparring with various styles of grappling were great. You could see the underlying philosophies in play, and also see how they could be very effective against a high level grappler. It wasn't a Tai Chi guy using BJJ against Marcelo Garcia. It was a tai chi guy using tai chi to counter BJJ.

Based upon what I've seen, I've no doubt that WC can be effective against a trained grappler. This presumes, though, that the techniques have been worked out on actual trained grapplers. I'm not saying that the techniques have to be BJJ or Judo techniques. Rather, that the WC techniques are tested and refined so that they reflect realistic defense against trained grapplers.

The problem in this thread, is that this video is not that, although I'm sure that this video doesn't reflect the way that many of you train.