I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[geezer]

Hanzou, pardon me for condensing your quote a bit and leaving out the more inflammatory and emotional parts ("...you create something wholly ineffective and LIE about its origins."). After all this is a forum for friendly discussion, not "fraud busting". At any rate, I actually agree with your comments below:

It doesn't work. ...Instead of admitting a weakness and simply pointing your students towards other places to address that weakness (or cross training and teaching your students personally), you create something wholly ineffective. ...Ironically, it actually makes your art look worse in the process.

I do not consider myself adequately trained to teach my students grappling. I am competent enough to show them some some of the vulnerabilities of WC to grappling, and for those who have the time and interest, I can recommend a couple of good gyms where they can cross train properly. Actually, I've lost a few students that way, but I've kept their respect.

Here's the problem though; As MMA becomes more and more popular, you're going to have more people learning grappling. It doesn't help that there's literally thousands of instructional Youtube videos for Bjj, Sambo, Judo, and CACC out there that are incredibly good, and really simple to learn from. You're never going to be as good as Bjj upper belt, or a Judo/Sambo black belt, but someone could attain intermediate level or slightly higher by getting together with their buddies in a garage and simply grappling with each other. Couple that with someone from a solid/strong wrestling background, and that level of skill could potentially get even higher than that.

True enough. In today's world, it's likely that a lot of guys will have some knowledge of grappling.

Your goal is to get up? Great. The person who put you down has a goal of keeping you pinned while he drops bombs on your face. What's worse is that in the unlikely event that you get back to your feet, nothing stops that guy from putting you right back on the ground again and dropping more bombs on your face.

Yep. That would be the general plan for a grappler. Ground and pound or a submission.

You simply can't count on the belief that your opponent will be unskilled, and you can't count on the belief that ineffective skills based on ineffective principles is going to save your hide.

True again. Neither can you count on the belief that your attacker will be unarmed or alone. Grappling skills may not save your backside either.

Learn how to grapple first, then learn how to PROPERLY counter it. If you're cobbling together a bunch of BS, then you're wasting your time, and potentially putting your student's lives at risk.

Again, I don't disagree. Whatever system you choose to study, definitely maintain a critical mind and seek out the best training available. On the other hand, Hanzou, you really need to get out of your BJJ bubble. For example, I've seen BJJ defenses against weapons that I find less than ideal. But I don't go around bashing the system and saying that people should dump their art in favor of the branch of FMA I train. Let's tone things down a bit and have some mutual respect.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou this is a thread for debate by WC people, about WC, for WC people.

Read the OP.

Before this thread , like every other thread on the WC forum which you comment on, turns into a "MMA/BJJ is the best and Wing Chun is useless" flamer, as usual.

Where did I say WC is useless? I'm saying that making up ineffective techniques against grappling is silly and an exercise in futility. If you're concerned about grappling, actually learn grappling so that you can properly learn how to counter it.

 

[Vajramusti]

Read the OP.



Where did I say WC is useless? I'm saying that making up ineffective techniques against grappling is silly and an exercise in futility. If you're concerned about grappling, actually learn grappling so that you can properly learn how to counter it.

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The OP way is not the only way and is not my way.
I have worked with good grapplers and so have my good wing chun sihings.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, I don't disagree. Whatever system you choose to study, definitely maintain a critical mind and seek out the best training available. On the other hand, Hanzou, you really need to get out of your BJJ bubble. For example, I've seen BJJ defenses against weapons that I find less than ideal. But I don't go around bashing the system and saying that people should dump their art in favor of the branch of FMA I train. Let's tone things down a bit and have some mutual respect.

Bjj weapon defenses come from classical JJ/Judo so it's a bit of a different situation than WC anti-grappling which was created recently in response to BJJ/MMA.

That said, if I was serious about unarmed fighting against knives I wouldn't hesitate to learn FMA knife defenses.

 

[Hanzou]

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The OP way is not the only way and is not my way.
I have worked with good grapplers and so have my good wing chun sihings.

Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere.

 

[Vajramusti]

Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere.

Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere.

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Every year Sifu Augustine Fong has week long seminars in the beginning of May.

 

[Hanzou]

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Every year Sifu Augustine Fong has week long seminars in the beginning of May.

I didn't see any anti-grappling vids from Sifu Wong.

Feel free to post some. I'm interested in seeing them. Hopefully they're better than what's been shown so far.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well that's great. Maybe you and your "siblings" should do some seminars and videos to counter the garbage seen in the OP and elsewhere.

Since you are a fan of demanding video, I've gotta ask: have you linked to video of your own, with yourself in them? I mean, how can the rest of us know with confidence that you actually have any of the skills you claim to back up all your talk? I've seen plenty of people who talk a good talk and sound like they really know something. Then I see their video and I know that they know nothing at all.

So, since you like to call for video from others, where are your own?

 

[Vajramusti]

I didn't see any anti-grappling vids from Sifu Wong.

Feel free to post some. I'm interested in seeing them. Hopefully they're better than what's been shown so far.

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Anti grappling is not a term that I use. Cheers and bye.

 

[Dr.Smith]

I'll say it again, no single martial art is going to have sufficient answers to all the situations that arise in a SD situation or an mma match, this is old hat with a painfully true reality we all have to accept at some point and that is that most if not all of us are not complete fighters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

no single martial art is going to have sufficient answers to all the situations that arise in a SD situation or an mma match,...

Many years ago, the long fist GM Han Ching-Tan's students had a Chinese wrestling match against the Chinese wrestling GM Chang Tung-Sheng's students. In that match, all GM Han's students lose badly. If the GM Han's students had a boxing match against the GM Chang's student, I'm sure that GM Han's students would win in all matches.

If you want to learn the

- striking art (or anti-striking art), learn it from a striking art instructor.
- grappling art (or anti-grappling art), learn it from a grappling art instructor.

 

[Hanzou]

Since you are a fan of demanding video, I've gotta ask: have you linked to video of your own, with yourself in them? I mean, how can the rest of us know with confidence that you actually have any of the skills you claim to back up all your talk? I've seen plenty of people who talk a good talk and sound like they really know something. Then I see their video and I know that they know nothing at all.

So, since you like to call for video from others, where are your own?

I asked for a video because someone stated that they perform something that's unusual. I wanted to see this unusual act. That unusual act also pertained to the topic.

I'm a Bjj purple belt. What's unusual about that and how does it pertain to the topic?

 

[Flying Crane]

I asked for a video because someone stated that they perform something that's unusual. I wanted to see this unusual act. That unusual act also pertained to the topic.

I'm a Bjj purple belt. What's unusual about that and how does it pertain to the topic?

You are asking others to show you their video. I am asking the same of you. Are you uncomfortable with that request?

 

[Hanzou]

You are asking others to show you their video. I am asking the same of you. Are you uncomfortable with that request?

You didn't answer my question.

Again, I asked them for a video because it pertained to the topic, and it was unusual.

 

[Danny T]

I asked for a video because someone stated that they perform something that's unusual.

Huh!
I am beginning to question your reading comprehension skills.
Joy didn't state he performs something unusual; he stated, "the OP way..., is not my way".
He also stated he has worked with good grapplers. In other words; he doesn't do what the guy in the video does.
I agree with him and you in what the guy in the video does is poor as for countering a grappler goes.

 

[drop bear]

Huh!
I am beginning to question your reading comprehension skills.
Joy didn't state he performs something unusual; he stated, "the OP way..., is not my way".
He also stated he has worked with good grapplers. In other words; he doesn't do what the guy in the video does.
I agree with him and you in what the guy in the video does is poor as for countering a grappler goes.

So is there any good anti grappling out there?

I mean I can defiantly post some videos of my instructors if you want. But it is difficult to get the right circumstance of myself sparring because we are a fight gym. And it is not the sort of information I give out.

And I may do a boxing at the end of the year. But otherwise I don't compete due to life getting in the way.

 

[Vajramusti]

Huh!
I am beginning to question your reading comprehension skills.
Joy didn't state he performs something unusual; he stated, "the OP way..., is not my way".
He also stated he has worked with good grapplers. In other words; he doesn't do what the guy in the video does.
I agree with him and you in what the guy in the video does is poor as for countering a grappler goes.

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Correct. On his reading snafus- Fong became Wong. And sihing became sibling.
He is just badgering.

 

[Hanzou]

Huh!
I am beginning to question your reading comprehension skills.
Joy didn't state he performs something unusual; he stated, "the OP way..., is not my way".
He also stated he has worked with good grapplers. In other words; he doesn't do what the guy in the video does.
I agree with him and you in what the guy in the video does is poor as for countering a grappler goes.

Uh he said that his Sifu performed solid WC anti-grappling, and performed this anti-grappling at various seminars.

Solid WC anti-grappling is the unusual component, because every iteration of WC anti-grappling shown up to this point has not been solid. I simply asked for a video of one of these seminars because I wish to see this better form of WC anti-grappling.

 

[Vajramusti]

Uh he said that his Sifu performed solid WC anti-grappling, and performed this anti-grappling at various seminars.

Solid WC anti-grappling is the unusual component, because every iteration of WC anti-grappling shown up to this point has not been solid. I simply asked for a video of one of these seminars because I wish to see this better form of WC anti-grappling.

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Sheesh! Again-Try reading carefully and sort out who is saying what and when and to whom. I have never used the term "anti grappling" to describe what I do and I have not engaged you actively in conversation on this thread-just pointed out inaccuracies -sibling for sihing, Wong for
Fong.

 

[Danny T]

So is there any good anti grappling out there?

I don't know. I don't spent my time seeking out what others market or show.
I do spend a bit of what little free time I have here.