I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[LFJ]

Longsword double leg.

Neat illustrations of duelling.

The only thing missing, if there were on a Chinese battlefield, would be the swarms of other warriors impaling him with their swords.

 

[Phobius]

My thoughts on the matter, not in any way proven but rather from my own reasoning. Ask me for proof wont work and some of my arguments may be very flawed. It is just for discussion.

All systems changes constantly, just because we can not see it looking back some hundred years.

Problem with grappling is that there is no way you can learn to defend against it without actually training against grappler. Either you become one yourself or you find a grappler to train with you. There have been some who think that grappling is not a martial art and as such everyone can do it, others had no idea how to do grappling and had to incorporate BJJ/GJJ to their school.

Problem still remains that their teachers did not train in a hostile chinese environment necessarily and therefore never got a chance to learn proper "anti-takedown" or grappling techniques. Most likely their teachers of that time were also too proud to allow themselves to fight on the ground in order to show their students how it should be done, same as their teachers before them.

As such grappling dies while the techniques remain. Problem is that noone knew how to apply the techniques and that is when everyone starts guessing wildly.

Now grappling today is most likely nowhere near the grappling in the old days which means that all so called "anti-grappling" based on old interpretation of the art are probably off since you no longer can be expected to carry a weapon at all times while going to the ground. Keep in mind that in the old days any trained martial artist would carry a weapon of some kind. Only in videos or if you are very poor would you go around unarmed with a big target sign on your back.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I find it interesting that your school views anti-grappling as so important that they put it on the front page of their website. Why above all other threats out there is the grappling adversary/MMA thug seen as the paramount threat to the Jow Ga practitioner?

Grappling is and has always been a danger to the strike, this isn't anything new. This is why boxers hug each other when they are taking too many strikes to the face. Strikes become less effective once your opponent is inside your striking range. The inside on your striking range is usually the distance between your elbow to your shoulder. This is a strikers weak point. Martial artists that don't understand this that will often try to punch an opponent that is shooting, which is completely useless once that person is inside that range. We don't view MMA as thugs, but we do understand that they are very good at getting into a strikers weak point. A good martial artist must be humble enough to recognize the dangers and weaknesses so that the correct technique can be used.

Further, if those guys in the video weren't doing grappling counters properly (one guy in the video is a sifu), does that mean that Jow Ga doesn't have standardized curriculum for anti-grappling?

Even though one of the guys is a Sifu, he still picked the wrong technique to address the shoot. Jow Ga has standardized anti-grappling in the form provided that the Sifu understands it as that and not rip it out of the form. For example, if a technique to deal with the shoot is made of two parts, but the Sifu fails to understand this and only does one part. The amount of detail knowledge that a Sifu has of the forms will often determine if they are able to point out the correct technique for dealing with grappling. Also the Sifu has to understand how the opponent's attack works so that the correct technique can be used. Most traditional martial artists will raise their stance in reaction to a shoot, this is a natural and untrained reaction. A tradition martial artist that sinks their stance when someone shoots is familiar with how the shoot works and is able to pick the correct technique to deal with it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Neat illustrations of duelling.

The only thing missing, if there were on a Chinese battlefield, would be the swarms of other warriors impaling him with their swords.

Not necessarily so. You may not have time to look around to see who needs help because you'll be busy fighting the guy in front of you. This would also be the case if the soldier wanted to fight away from others. Keep in mind you are fighting with Spears and Swords so swinging your sword too close to your own men may result in you killing him from a large swing. To put it in simple terms. If you and I are on the front lines with swords, how close do you think you want to stand next to me when I'm swinging my sword?

 

[LFJ]

Not necessarily so. You may not have time to look around to see who needs help because you'll be busy fighting the guy in front of you. This would also be the case if the soldier wanted to fight away from others. Keep in mind you are fighting with Spears and Swords so swinging your sword too close to your own men may result in you killing him from a large swing. To put it in simple terms. If you and I are on the front lines with swords, how close do you think you want to stand next to me when I'm swinging my sword?

Well, this is all speculation unless you've been on such a battlefield, isn't it?

Some years ago, medieval padded weapon battles were a thing with some people I knew and I participated in a few. Sure, there were no live blades of course, but we acknowledged when we would have "died". There were 500+ on a large open field with spears, long swords, short swords, double swords, flails, shields, and even archers that we had to be aware of.

Many people also had formal weapon training and were pretty good with it. I duelled a guy who had Japanese sword training with my double swords. But in order to do that we both had to call off our guys. I imagine that wouldn't work in a real armed conflict. If either of us dropped weapons and went to grapple we'd certainly be killed by people running by, as it was a giant group effort. People didn't just stand and fight individual battles 1 on 1. There was a lot of group strategy involved. I can only imagine group mentality would be all the more important if lives were actually on the line, as in ancient bladed battles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some years ago, medieval padded weapon battles were a thing with some people I knew and I participated in a few. Sure, there were no live blades of course, but we acknowledged when we would have "died".

So this is where your understanding of weapons use, self-defense, and ancient battlefields come from?

 

[LFJ]

So this is where your understanding of weapons use, self-defense, and ancient battlefields come from?

Of course not. Don't be stupid.

I'm saying if it's not even "safe" to grapple when playing how the hell could you think it'd be safe on a real battlefield with live blades and actual death?

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a common anti-grappling technique (specifically at 0:27). The key to it is turning opponent's torso as they are in the process of trying to grab you. The concept works is sound and it will work if you use the correct technique. I personally think the technique here is wrong mainly I've used this technique before with a wider stance and it required that one of my arms has to be inside the shoot. The biggest flaw I see here is the stance. There's no way it could survive the impact of a shoot. The (0:34) mark shows a wider stance but it has to be even wider than that because the attacker is still able to get his arms around both legs. The defender tries to stop the force of the shoot, but in reality you'll be better of going with flow and using the momentum of the shoot to help you execute your the technique.

This is has some good basic anti-grappling concepts (2:52)

This guy is too hyper for me but we have a similar technique in Jow Ga (2:15) The goal is to prevent the opponent from grabbing your lead leg. I've done this before where my opponent went for my lead leg but my hands weren't used the way he uses it here. I'm always afraid that my elbows will slip off my opponent so I don't slow the shoot in this manner. It's important to something else after that lead leg is free because your opponent isn't going to just stop trying just because they couldn't get the lead leg. None of the examples here are a one size fits all solution to shoots. These work well for a shoot that is coming in with a lot of forward momentum. There are shoots that start forward and low and then shoot upward. Those require a different technique to defend against.

 

[drop bear]

Neat illustrations of duelling.

The only thing missing, if there were on a Chinese battlefield, would be the swarms of other warriors impaling him with their swords.

If other people were in a position to impale you with swords they are just going to do it. Not wait until you are grappling.

 

[drop bear]

If other people were in a position to impale you with swords they are just going to do it. Not wait until you are grappling.

Records of Vikings wrestling on the battlefield.

Hurstwic: Viking Swords

 

[Phobius]

Even medieval reenactment or fighting can be brutal. Once you end up in a bad situation the risk increases that people want to do grappling despite weapons just to bring you down.

Sorry btw, was not really interested or followed this last bit of discussion but saw the medieval "joke" of a fight and just had to share this video since it depicts a slightly more hurtful fight.

(Know a friend that has participated in these events and she is a really tough woman but still says each fight hurts like hell and comes home with bruises and sometimes worse to a degree that doctors would think in terms of severe domestic violence.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even medieval reenactment or fighting can be brutal. Once you end up in a bad situation the risk increases that people want to do grappling despite weapons just to bring you down.

Sorry btw, was not really interested or followed this last bit of discussion but saw the medieval "joke" of a fight and just had to share this video since it depicts a slightly more hurtful fight.

(Know a friend that has participated in these events and she is a really tough woman but still says each fight hurts like hell and comes home with bruises and sometimes worse to a degree that doctors would think in terms of severe domestic violence.)

Search youtube for longsword fighting

Here's one that has grappling techniques

 

[Hanzou]

Grappling is and has always been a danger to the strike, this isn't anything new. This is why boxers hug each other when they are taking too many strikes to the face. Strikes become less effective once your opponent is inside your striking range. The inside on your striking range is usually the distance between your elbow to your shoulder. This is a strikers weak point. Martial artists that don't understand this that will often try to punch an opponent that is shooting, which is completely useless once that person is inside that range. We don't view MMA as thugs, but we do understand that they are very good at getting into a strikers weak point. A good martial artist must be humble enough to recognize the dangers and weaknesses so that the correct technique can be used.

While I understand the argument, the way its presented on the website is that the grappler is the most dangerous and likely scenario you're going to run into in a self defense situation, and that they have a solution to that problem. It just reeks like that claim by the Wing Tsun exponent that his anti-grappling can stop "advanced grapplers" from smearing your face into the concrete.

Even though one of the guys is a Sifu, he still picked the wrong technique to address the shoot. Jow Ga has standardized anti-grappling in the form provided that the Sifu understands it as that and not rip it out of the form. For example, if a technique to deal with the shoot is made of two parts, but the Sifu fails to understand this and only does one part. The amount of detail knowledge that a Sifu has of the forms will often determine if they are able to point out the correct technique for dealing with grappling. Also the Sifu has to understand how the opponent's attack works so that the correct technique can be used. Most traditional martial artists will raise their stance in reaction to a shoot, this is a natural and untrained reaction. A tradition martial artist that sinks their stance when someone shoots is familiar with how the shoot works and is able to pick the correct technique to deal with it.

Well do you understand how the shoot works? Those videos you posted in a later post both showed the DLT done incorrectly (and frankly, as a former MMA fighter Shawn Obasi should know better). If that's how you guys are training to stop that takedown, then you're going to be in a lot of trouble when the time comes to defend against a proper one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

understand how the shoot works...

Most wrestlers use the following method to deal with leg shooting.

- put both hands in front of your both knees. Your hands are in front of your knees. Before your opponent's hands can reach to your legs, his hands has to pass your hands first. This will work if striking is not concerned.
- when your opponent shoots, you "under hook" his shoulders and stop his forward movement.

This will work but IMO, this is too "conservative" approach. You just want to "stop" your opponent's shooting.

Another approach is:

- when your opponent shoots,
- you use one arm to "over hook" one of his shoulder,
- spin the leading leg back,
- lift one of his legs, and
- take him down.

This approach will require good timing and fast footwork. But it's more "aggressive" approach. You want to "take advantage on" your opponent's shooting.

The 3rd approach can be as simple as:

- pull your leading leg back,
- put both hands behind your opponent's neck,
- borrow his forward force,
- lead him into the emptiness, and
- let him to kiss the dirt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While I understand the argument, the way its presented on the website is that the grappler is the most dangerous and likely scenario you're going to run into in a self defense situation, and that they have a solution to that problem. It just reeks like that claim by the Wing Tsun exponent that his anti-grappling can stop "advanced grapplers" from smearing your face into the concrete.

1. Most (not all) Chinese Martial Art schools neglect grappling. If someone is looking for a kung fu school that addresses grappling then, yes we do have a solution, and better yet it's a working solution.

2. The site says "Jow Ga is a well-rounded fighting system that includes grappling anti grappling techniques which is vital in a world of MMA grappling style opponents." Jow Ga does include grappling and anti-grappling techniques. Knowledge of Grappling and anti-grappling techniques is a must if you are going to someone who knows how to Grapple and Shoot. Grappling is a vital part of the MMA world. Which of those statements in #1 or #2 above are wrong?

Well do you understand how the shoot works? Those videos you posted in a later post both showed the DLT done incorrectly (and frankly, as a former MMA fighter Shawn Obasi should know better). If that's how you guys are training to stop that takedown, then you're going to be in a lot of trouble when the time comes to defend against a proper one.

1. Yes I understand how the shoot works. It's just that I'm not going to go into details about the specifics of those techniques. If I say that we have a similar technique to defending against the shoot it doesn't mean that it's the same. It just means that there are some similar elements. If it doesn't sound like I know how to defend against the shoot then there's nothing that I can do about that. Me proving that I can defend against the shoot won't have any benefit to anyone here. Just as people not believing me won't have any negative affect. The only person that I ever prove my abilities against the shoot is the person who is shooting on me and I have been successful in doing so during my sparring with other fighting styles. People choose to believe or not to believe me. Either is fine.

 

[Hanzou]

1. Most (not all) Chinese Martial Art schools neglect grappling. If someone is looking for a kung fu school that addresses grappling then, yes we do have a solution, and better yet it's a working solution.

2. The site says "Jow Ga is a well-rounded fighting system that includes grappling anti grappling techniques which is vital in a world of MMA grappling style opponents." Jow Ga does include grappling and anti-grappling techniques. Knowledge of Grappling and anti-grappling techniques is a must if you are going to someone who knows how to Grapple and Shoot. Grappling is a vital part of the MMA world. Which of those statements in #1 or #2 above are wrong?

Since I have yet to see any of these Jow Ga grappling/anti-grappling techniques, I'll just ask; Are they native to Jow Ga, or were they picked up from modern/western/MMA grappling?

1. Yes I understand how the shoot works. It's just that I'm not going to go into details about the specifics of those techniques. If I say that we have a similar technique to defending against the shoot it doesn't mean that it's the same. It just means that there are some similar elements. If it doesn't sound like I know how to defend against the shoot then there's nothing that I can do about that. Me proving that I can defend against the shoot won't have any benefit to anyone here. Just as people not believing me won't have any negative affect. The only person that I ever prove my abilities against the shoot is the person who is shooting on me and I have been successful in doing so during my sparring with other fighting styles. People choose to believe or not to believe me. Either is fine.

If you know how the DLT works, why are you posting vids of people doing it improperly and saying that those are good examples of defenses against that technique?

If you go to youtube and look up Double Leg Takedown tutorials you'll see the difference. It's like night and day.

 

[Hanzou]

Most wrestlers use the following method to deal with leg shooting.

- put both hands in front of your both knees. Your hands are in front of your knees. Before your opponent's hands can reach to your legs, his hands has to pass your hands first. This will work if striking is not concerned.
- when your opponent shoots, you "under hook" his shoulders and stop his forward movement.

This will work but IMO, this is too "conservative" approach. You just want to "stop" your opponent's shooting.

Another approach is:

- when your opponent shoots,
- you use one arm to "over hook" one of his shoulder,
- spin the leading leg back,
- lift one of his legs, and
- take him down.

This approach will require good timing and fast footwork. But it's more "aggressive" approach. You want to "take advantage on" your opponent's shooting.

The 3rd approach can be as simple as:

- pull your leading leg back,
- put both hands behind your opponent's neck,
- borrow his forward force,
- lead him into the emptiness, and
- let him to kiss the dirt.

My issue is mainly with the vids that Jow posted. There's definitely counters to someone shooting into you, but someone bending over and coming at you with their arms stretched out while they're looking at the floor is not a good way to practice DLT counters.

But yeah, if you want to stop that takedown, talk to wrestlers. They're the masters of doing it, and stopping it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My issue is mainly with the vids that Jow posted.

I just tried to point out that "striking" is not a proper counter for "leg shooting". Even if your strike may hit on your opponent, his forward momentum will still push you back and take you down.

Again, the best test is still:

- get a wrestler,
- ask him to shoot at your leg,
- you try to use your punch to stop him.

Test this for 100 rounds and draw your own conclusion.

 

[LFJ]

If other people were in a position to impale you with swords they are just going to do it. Not wait until you are grappling.

Exactly, and if you were in a group battle you would be more vigilant to the threats around you, in addition to that directly before you. All the more reason you would not be tangling up with one guy.

All examples shown of grappling with weapons have been in duels, for a reason.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly, and if you were in a group battle you would be more vigilant to the threats around you, in addition to that directly before you. All the more reason you would not be tangling up with one guy.

All examples shown of grappling with weapons have been in duels, for a reason.

Were the Viking examples duels?

There is no point getting stabbed if going to the ground gets you unstabbed. I mean we are working a time factor here if you are farting around in a group fight trying to get one guy then you are not teaming up with your mates getting the next guy and increasing your odds.