I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[JowGaWolf]

Hanzou
I've saw that fight, when I was going through all those Youtube videos looking for MMA strikers. Trying to smoother a striker is a good plan because that means you taking striking capabilities away. Once you do that, it's all about out grappling the striker. This is always the best move when fighting someone who is a far better Striker than you. This is a perfect example of that where the grappler knew the danger of the Striker and didn't play into the strikers strength.

Silva is a striker that can win the game on the ground if he has to, but prefers inflicting facial damage to his opponents. If I had to fight Anderson Silva I would only have 2 options. Stay really far or stay really close so that I can quickly tap out when he applies the submission. But based on some of his other fights, he would probably just let me get up so that he can have another chance at caving in my face.

 

[Steve]

More KOs caused by striking not Grappling

Haven't seen any strikers. Lot of well rounded fighters. Do you really not understand the difference?

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou
I've saw that fight, when I was going through all those Youtube videos looking for MMA strikers. Trying to smoother a striker is a good plan because that means you taking striking capabilities away. Once you do that, it's all about out grappling the striker. This is always the best move when fighting someone who is a far better Striker than you. This is a perfect example of that where the grappler knew the danger of the Striker and didn't play into the strikers strength.

Silva is a striker that can win the game on the ground if he has to, but prefers inflicting facial damage to his opponents. If I had to fight Anderson Silva I would only have 2 options. Stay really far or stay really close so that I can quickly tap out when he applies the submission. But based on some of his other fights, he would probably just let me get up so that he can have another chance at caving in my face.

Okay, but how exactly can Silva win the game on the ground simply as a "striker"? His fight against Dan Henderson is another example. Dan Henderson is a former Olympic wrestler. In the first round of their fight, Henderson took him to the mat and almost submitted him. What saved him? Again it was his extensive background in Bjj. Further, it can be argued that what made him such an effective striker was his grappling ability. The fact that he was probably one of the best grapplers in MMA more than likely gave him the confidence to push his striking to the level it reached.

Your argument here is dubious and bordering and sheer silliness. None of the vids you posted shows a striker with no grappling background stopping a grappler. Much less, there's no video of a traditional Chinese martial artist stepping into a ring against a MMA/Bjj fighter and shutting down his ability to grappler.

However, I just happen to have a video that shows such a contest. The results shouldn't be a surprise for anyone;

 

[Hanzou]

You got to admit well rounded MMA strikers are way more fun to watch in the UFC. Although black belt level straight grappling is pretty cool like this.

Grappling in the UFC, or lower level tends to be pretty boring.

Striking fundamentally changes the grappling game. While you have to be methodical in grappling-only competitions, when striking enters the equation, you have to make sure that your opponent has no openings to strike you. That tosses a lot of the sport Bjj stuff out the window by default.

For example, in grappling one of my favorite positions is half guard. However, in a self-defense/MMA situation, I would almost certainly never use it, at least not the way I use it in class.

 

[geezer]

Hey Hanzou... that "TCMA" guy in the clip you provided wasn't much of a striker either. Did you see him get knocked down at 2:03? It was like he was on drugs or something, and not the "performance enhancing" type either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hey Hanzou... that "TCMA" guy in the clip you provided wasn't much of a striker either. Did you see him get knocked down at 2:03? It was like he was on drugs or something, and not the "performance enhancing" type either.

Not only that. He didn't throw even 1 punch, 1 kick, or 1 take down through the entire match. That will be the worse nightmare for any MA guy.

That clip remind me this clip.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Haven't seen any strikers. Lot of well rounded fighters. Do you really not understand the difference?

Dude I'm through with you. I show you videos of people getting knocked out by punches, kicks, and elbows and you tell me that you don't see any strikers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

None of the vids you posted shows a striker with no grappling background stopping a grappler. Much less, there's no video of a traditional Chinese martial artist stepping into a ring against a MMA/Bjj fighter and shutting down his ability to grappler.

1st: Being a striker doesn't mean that you can't have knowledge or a background in grappling.
2nd: A fighter doesn't have to be a striker all the time. It's not an EITHER OR condition to be classified as a striker
3rd: The videos I showed with people getting knocked out came from striking. The only reason I showed those was because Steve said he hasn't seen striking in MMA
4th: How did Chinese Martial Arts get in to the discussion when we were talking about MMA?

As for the video that you showed. It's clear that the guy that was taken down has never fought a grappler. He doesn't even understand the concept of the shoot, hence the high stance he took (multiple times). He also didn't understand the concept of keep your "hands up." From his initial stance he appeared to be a Wing Chun practitioner (and not a very good one nor a good fighter period)

Chinese Martial Arts have grappling in them. What do you think Shuai Jiao is? Some of those same grappling techniques are found in multiple Chinese martial art style
People kill me when you pick an old fighting style that has been around for thousands of years, used in war, used in self-defense and make the assumption that these fighting styles never encountered someone that took them to the ground. So 1000+ years of fighting an not one person during that time thought, "HMM. I should tackle him and wrestle him to the ground." Children naturally wrestle against each other. So what makes you think grappling wouldn't exist in a Chinese Martial Art that was used in war?


The reason why you don't see many Chinese Martial artist use grappling is because they neglect it. I do Jow Ga Kung fu and we do grappling although our grappling isn't for the purpose of submitting them, but to put our opponent on the ground so we can kick them while they are down or to grab a weapon (anything that we can use to jab, smash, or hit with) and attack them while they are down. In Jow Ga we are taught that being on the ground is always bad because it takes away our mobility to fight multiple attackers.
I can tell you this much the only submission grabbling skill that I have would be Chin Na which is just simply joint locks that have the same purpose as MMA joint locks (to destroy the joint).

 

[drop bear]

Hanzou
I've saw that fight, when I was going through all those Youtube videos looking for MMA strikers. Trying to smoother a striker is a good plan because that means you taking striking capabilities away. Once you do that, it's all about out grappling the striker. This is always the best move when fighting someone who is a far better Striker than you. This is a perfect example of that where the grappler knew the danger of the Striker and didn't play into the strikers strength.

Silva is a striker that can win the game on the ground if he has to, but prefers inflicting facial damage to his opponents. If I had to fight Anderson Silva I would only have 2 options. Stay really far or stay really close so that I can quickly tap out when he applies the submission. But based on some of his other fights, he would probably just let me get up so that he can have another chance at caving in my face.

Take Forrest griffons advice. Don't fight Anderson Silva.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Take Forrest griffons advice. Don't fight Anderson Silva.

ha ha ha.. yes that too. One way not to lose against Anderson would be me not to fight him in the first place. That's works for me too. lol. The biggest thing that I admire about grappling is that it's more gentle than the striking. By gentle, I mean you get to tap out before your joint is ripped (provided the guy isn't a douche). With striking there's no such thing tapping out after being kicked in the face or punched in the face, not to mention all of the damage to the face and unexpected naps. Just a lot of head trauma.
I'll take a submission any day just because I know I would submit before I pass out from a choke or from my arm being ripped out of it's joint.

 

[LFJ]

People kill me when you pick an old fighting style that has been around for thousands of years, used in war, used in self-defense and make the assumption that these fighting styles never encountered someone that took them to the ground. So 1000+ years of fighting an not one person during that time thought, "HMM. I should tackle him and wrestle him to the ground." Children naturally wrestle against each other. So what makes you think grappling wouldn't exist in a Chinese Martial Art that was used in war?

Wrestling someone to the ground in a war where everyone had swords and spears and other bladed weapons would be stupid and crazy. But what makes you think Taijiquan or any empty-handed TCMA was ever used in war anyway? Because their legends say so?

I don't buy it. Most TCMA "masters" in mainland China nowadays would probably fair as well as the guy Hanzou just posted. I live in China and have been all over the country. Traditional masters from Beijing to Guangzhou all do hours of forms and demo applications but never train in any realistic way and can't fight for sh!t. They also believe their own qigong bs, like breaking a brick means you're a great fighter.

That makes me doubt they were ever any good. 1k+ years of fighting and they still suck. What reason is there to believe Taiji guys were killing people barehanded in wars? Because a guy named Shifu can break a brick and said so?

 

[Steve]

Dude I'm through with you. I show you videos of people getting knocked out by punches, kicks, and elbows and you tell me that you don't see any strikers.

That's true. I don't. I see well rounded fighters. Think about how that applies to the topic of this thread. When a person has well rounded skills, grappling can help striking be more effective, and vice versa. When you have well rounded skills, you are no longer a striker or a grappler. And at an elite level, in MMA, one must be well rounded in order to compete well.

So, yeah. You show me videos of any high level MMA match, and I don't see what you see.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wrestling someone to the ground in a war where everyone had swords and spears and other bladed weapons would be stupid and crazy. But what makes you think Taijiquan or any empty-handed TCMA was ever used in war anyway

The same reason that our modern military practices hand to hand combat even though we have tanks, plans, missiles, grenades, snipers, machine guns, helicopters.
The military doesn't train for useless things.
Even in war it's not always guaranteed that you'll always have a weapon or that the weapon won't be damaged. This has always been the case.
Tell this guy that hand to hand combat is useless
What makes me think that empty-hand TCMA was ever used in war? The same reason this guy had to use hand to hand combat.

I don't buy it. Most TCMA

What you buy is up to you. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and I know from experience that it's a legit fighting system.

Traditional masters from Beijing to Guangzhou all do hours of forms and demo applications but never train in any realistic way and can't fight for sh!t

That's how they train not how I train. I dedicated 2 hours every Thursday to actually realistic fighting application. I spar against other fighting styles so that I can learn how to apply my Jow Ga to against different fighting styles.

They also believe their own qigong bs, like breaking a brick means you're a great fighter

Once again that them and not me nor the fighting system I train in. We only care about breaking faces and bones. The only use we have for a brick is to pick one up in a fight and use it to smash someone with.

What reason is there to believe Taiji guys were killing people barehanded in wars? Because a guy named Shifu can break a brick and said so?

Show me where I said Taiji was used in a war?

 

[drop bear]

Wrestling someone to the ground in a war where everyone had swords and spears and other bladed weapons would be stupid and crazy. But what makes you think Taijiquan or any empty-handed TCMA was ever used in war anyway? Because their legends say so?

I don't buy it. Most TCMA "masters" in mainland China nowadays would probably fair as well as the guy Hanzou just posted. I live in China and have been all over the country. Traditional masters from Beijing to Guangzhou all do hours of forms and demo applications but never train in any realistic way and can't fight for sh!t. They also believe their own qigong bs, like breaking a brick means you're a great fighter.

That makes me doubt they were ever any good. 1k+ years of fighting and they still suck. What reason is there to believe Taiji guys were killing people barehanded in wars? Because a guy named Shifu can break a brick and said so?

 

[drop bear]

Longsword double leg.

 

[geezer]

Longsword double leg.

This is priceless. Even swordsmen needed to defend against takedowns. Next time one of my WC buddies tells me their striking is enough to stop a takedown, I'm showing them this!

 

[Hanzou]

1st: Being a striker doesn't mean that you can't have knowledge or a background in grappling.
2nd: A fighter doesn't have to be a striker all the time. It's not an EITHER OR condition to be classified as a striker
3rd: The videos I showed with people getting knocked out came from striking. The only reason I showed those was because Steve said he hasn't seen striking in MMA
4th: How did Chinese Martial Arts get in to the discussion when we were talking about MMA?

Um, we were discussing Wing Chun anti-grappling, which is a Chinese martial art.

As for the video that you showed. It's clear that the guy that was taken down has never fought a grappler. He doesn't even understand the concept of the shoot, hence the high stance he took (multiple times). He also didn't understand the concept of keep your "hands up." From his initial stance he appeared to be a Wing Chun practitioner (and not a very good one nor a good fighter period)

Chinese Martial Arts have grappling in them. What do you think Shuai Jiao is? Some of those same grappling techniques are found in multiple Chinese martial art style
People kill me when you pick an old fighting style that has been around for thousands of years, used in war, used in self-defense and make the assumption that these fighting styles never encountered someone that took them to the ground. So 1000+ years of fighting an not one person during that time thought, "HMM. I should tackle him and wrestle him to the ground." Children naturally wrestle against each other. So what makes you think grappling wouldn't exist in a Chinese Martial Art that was used in war?

Grappling has evolved considerably since most of those Chinese TMAs were formed. So while there may be some old school grappling in traditional CMAs, its grossly outdated compared to modern grappling, which has integrated a variety of tactics and techniques.

Take Stephen Hayes' laughable counter to the guard position for example;

Just about everything about that was wrong.

The reason why you don't see many Chinese Martial artist use grappling is because they neglect it. I do Jow Ga Kung fu and we do grappling although our grappling isn't for the purpose of submitting them, but to put our opponent on the ground so we can kick them while they are down or to grab a weapon (anything that we can use to jab, smash, or hit with) and attack them while they are down. In Jow Ga we are taught that being on the ground is always bad because it takes away our mobility to fight multiple attackers.
I can tell you this much the only submission grabbling skill that I have would be Chin Na which is just simply joint locks that have the same purpose as MMA joint locks (to destroy the joint).

Would these be the Jow Ga counters to grappling you're talking about;




That's pretty bad.

Even if its not neglected, unless they're incorporating modern grappling into the process, they're wasting their time.

There was a video of a Wing Chun exponent using modern wrestling methods, and showing how to stop the DLT the proper way. That's how you do it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Would these be the Jow Ga counters to grappling you're talking about;

No those aren't the Jow Ga counters to grappling that I'm talking about. I actually commented about those Jow Ga techniques in your video from another post and said that, I wouldn't use those technique to deal with a shoot. I understand how he's trying to use those techniques to deal with the striking but none of those are going to address the force or speed that comes with people who know how to shoot. Those gifs are perfect example of correct technique used for the wrong situation. I'm sure those guys have anti grappling techniques as well, unless the sifu ripped it out of their forms.

The Jow Ga counters that I'm talking about to defend against someone shooting for the legs or the waist actually requires that we grab the person shooting. A person shouldn't defend against a shoot with a strike, that's a bad idea 99% of the time. This is the Jow Ga school where I train. If you are really interested in seeing some Chinese TMA grappling and grappling defenses then I should have some videos up showing our school in action (non-demo application) against the shoot next week (provided that my Sifu approves of the videos I choose). Don't expect any fancy stuff like what you showed in the Jow Ga video above.

 

[Hanzou]

No those aren't the Jow Ga counters to grappling that I'm talking about. I actually commented about those Jow Ga techniques in your video from another post and said that, I wouldn't use those technique to deal with a shoot. I understand how he's trying to use those techniques to deal with the striking but none of those are going to address the force or speed that comes with people who know how to shoot. Those gifs are perfect example of correct technique used for the wrong situation. I'm sure those guys have anti grappling techniques as well, unless the sifu ripped it out of their forms.

The Jow Ga counters that I'm talking about to defend against someone shooting for the legs or the waist actually requires that we grab the person shooting. A person shouldn't defend against a shoot with a strike, that's a bad idea 99% of the time. This is the Jow Ga school where I train. If you are really interested in seeing some Chinese TMA grappling and grappling defenses then I should have some videos up showing our school in action (non-demo application) against the shoot next week (provided that my Sifu approves of the videos I choose). Don't expect any fancy stuff like what you showed in the Jow Ga video above.

Thanks for the link.

I noticed this on the website;

Jow Ga is a well-rounded fighting system that includes grappling anti grappling techniques which is vital in a world of MMA grappling style opponents.

I find it interesting that your school views anti-grappling as so important that they put it on the front page of their website. Why above all other threats out there is the grappling adversary/MMA thug seen as the paramount threat to the Jow Ga practitioner?

Further, if those guys in the video weren't doing grappling counters properly (one guy in the video is a sifu), does that mean that Jow Ga doesn't have standardized curriculum for anti-grappling?

 

[LFJ]

Tell this guy that hand to hand combat is useless

Why would I tell anyone hand to hand combat is useless?

What makes me think that empty-hand TCMA was ever used in war? The same reason this guy had to use hand to hand combat.

And what war do you think they were used in? And how would you know they didn't just get people killed because they're bad systems?...

I highly doubt their effectiveness on a battlefield because the majority of traditional techniques are highly impractical even 1 on 1, at least those that are passed down in China in this day and age. But I have no reason to believe they were ever any more practical, as I've seen evidence of some styles remaining isolated and unchanged for 500+ years. Meaning the impractical garbage they do now is the same as what they did centuries ago.

That's how they train not how I train. I dedicated 2 hours every Thursday to actually realistic fighting application. I spar against other fighting styles so that I can learn how to apply my Jow Ga to against different fighting styles.

And what makes you think they ever trained more realistically and faced other styles in training, especially when their systems are full of impractical classical nonsense?

What you buy is up to you. I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and I know from experience that it's a legit fighting system.

And what war do you think it was used in? It's not very old, like Ving Tsun, which I think only became a legit fighting system after Yip Man simplified it from the traditional nonsense it once was in the mainland, and still is in many lineages today.

Show me where I said Taiji was used in a war?

I must have assumed you meant that because you were responding to a post that showed a clip of a Yang Style Taijiquan practitioner and talking about old TCMAs used in war. I realize now the title of the video was only in Chinese and you may not have been able to read it...