IKCA Karate Connection.

[Mark Weiser]

I have been watching this Thread for a few days. I find it interesting that when SGM Parker was alive he was working on getting his own 40 plus Video Tape series together to do long distance training. I wonder if he was still here what he would have to say about all this nonense lol.

I have said before. I think SGM Parker would be at the top of the best Equipment and Software to get Kenpo out to the World. I would bet $$$ he would be doing Video Testing right now. Heck he even helped make his own Videos in the past and also allowed his seminars to be taped for distrubtion.

Hmmmm crazy world eh! lol

 

[bdparsons]

I guess I wonder "about the cream of the crop" type of thought. I don't know what 50 percent, I know what on tapes

Sorry, I'm running a little dense today, don't get the "cream of the crop" reference.

Again, specifics about what you find lacking, other than face-to-face instruction?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Doc]

I have been watching this Thread for a few days. I find it interesting that when SGM Parker was alive he was working on getting his own 40 plus Video Tape series together to do long distance training. I wonder if he was still here what he would have to say about all this nonense lol.

Yes it is true Mr. Parker wanted to finish the video series we started, and he also intended 75 plus videos to ultimately hit the market. I actually did the voice overs for about ten in a local radio station studio from scripts he provided, and was the announcer on #2 that Edmund finished.

I have said before. I think SGM Parker would be at the top of the best Equipment and Software to get Kenpo out to the World. I would bet $$$ he would be doing Video Testing right now.

As a "beginner in EKP," that's a bet you would lose sir. While it is true the idea of video instruction in kenpo originated with Mr. Parker, his plan did not include testing by video. He never intended video to compete with established schoosl of ANY style. He felt video would be an effective tool in areas where the demographics would not support a commercial business, thus spreading Kenpo to areas where it normally would not be found. He wanted to establish small "clubs" where a group of people could get together to "study" the best way they could under the circumstances. He and I both had a history of training and teaching in small clubs, schools and colleges, and I personally have never ran a commercial school so I knew what he meant. He always said the best students are training somewhere at a YMCA, playground, or somebody's garage.

He planned to have a small corp of instructors from different parts of the country with established schools who would leave their business on a regular schedule and travel within their "area." Their focus would be to service these clubs for the purpose of administering periodic instruction and grading for rank in support of the video. The videos were only meant to provide direction in between instructor visits.

Mr. Parker was a true visionary. He even spoke of video conferancing where he could eventually cut down some of his "road time" and teach through satellite links, and reach masses of students simultaneously.

Heck he even helped make his own Videos in the past and also allowed his seminars to be taped for distrubtion.

Not exactly. He ALLOWED his seminars to be taped as reference material for the host and students, but NEVER to be distributed or sold as some "enterprising loyalists" seem to find a reason to do a couple times a year. I have many tapes myself, but you'll never see them on Ebay. I got a bunch on "beta" I haven't looked at for years. I guess I should have them transfered. Mr. Parker always requested a copy of every video that was shot of him.

Hmmmm crazy world eh! lol

On this we can agree - however I'm not laughing nor should any competent teacher find this situation "funny."

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Never once have I stated "you suck", can't say that I've been extended the same courtesy. The assumption having never met me face-to-face is that I suck at Kenpo because I chose to learn study in an unorthodox (I like neo-orthodox) manner.

Speaking of the advantages of an in person instructor (never disputed) is not discussing concepts, it's discussing logistics.

Any thoughts on Mr. Tatum's HSP?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

I tried to comment on this the other day, but my computer at work wouldn't send it. I'll bite wih my 2 cents.

Mr. Robert Perry was a kenpo instructor in Southern Cal, who was also a very good business man. To clarify that, he was good at getting paid and keeping his doors open. In a frank conversation about business & marketing tactics, he noted something to the effect of, "Only a very small fraction of the people who come here are of the ilk who will make a lifetime commitment to this (kenpo). The rest are on a hobby hunt, and won't be back to finish their 1st 6 months. So, if they are dead set on throwing their money away on something their going to leave behind anyway, I want to make it easy for them to throw it towards me."

Mr. Tatum is also a (how shall we say this..) shrewd businessman. I have every confidence that the people who train regularly at his Pasadena school function with a much higher skill level and greater comprehension around kenpo than do his video students.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kalicombat]

:asian:
As an observation on the responses in this thread. A few of the you need to expand your vocabulary and refrain from the cheap shots and innuendos. It only belittles you. If you have first hand experience with the IKCA material or some of it's practioners simply state in a clear and concise way what was positive or negative. Also, would you be willing to say what you write here to the person you are speaking about face to face (ie. Mr Sullivan or LeRoux)? Searcher asked for opinions about the IKCA and got some good information (good and bad) but also a lot rants and bashing-Welcome to the Kenpo community! I like, enjoy and find the IKCA material very useful. I respect Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux for their effort-Just as I respected Mr. Parker and his Chinese Kenpo.

EKP RIP
Big Pat

Big Pat,
I have read some of your posts, and you keep refering to Ed Parkers Kenpo as CHINESE KENPO. Why? We all understand that he started in Chinese kenpo, however, what he gave the world was not Chinese Kenpo, it was American Kenpo. In your signature, you always have EKP RIP, I get that, but if your gonna show the obvious respect as in your signature, why not show the obvious respect for what the man gave the world. He didnt give the world Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo, he gave it Ed Parker's American Kenpo.
Is this in some way, a method of comparing your IKCA material to EPAK material?

As far as the IKCA, I have first hand knowledge of the organization and the material. When I started in the IKCA, there were fewer people with as much motivation and zeal for what they were doing then I had. I did the orange belt material, tested, and was on my way to a long and happy relationship in the IKCA. I enjoyed the supposed comraderie I thought was present, and the access to the systems founders. I attended an IKCA seminar, with much anticipation, and was looking forward to meeting and working out with the whole crew from California. What I found when I met Mr. Sullian and Leroux was alot different from what I had expected. Mr. Sullivan was quiet, reserved, if you will, and Vic ran things. It was obvious who were the school owners in the way that they interacted with those folks putting more money in their pockets. There werent alot of people at the seminar compared to most EPAK seminars Ive been too, but it was obvious that the IKCA was not for me. THe actual training time was more of an ego boost for the blackbelts because after an hour or so of actual review of the orange belt material, all focus turned to watching the upper belts perform the master form. I can honestly say that after driving 8 hours one way to get to this seminar, I learned one valuable lesson and nothing else; The IKCA is based on making money. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but not what I had in mind and not what I wanted my representative organization to be focused on. Also, this was 9 or 10 years ago, when the organization was much smaller then it is now.

The people that I saw there that moved well, and impressed me, were, amazingly enough, previous EPAK blackbelts, and went with the IKCA after having already developed their skill and way of moving through EPAK instruction. Those students that were strictly video students not only didnt impress me with their kenpo, but their demeanor and the whole OKIE-DOKIE attitude and response to everything Vic said was not flattering. Like I said, I have been to alot of martial arts training seminars, and I always came away with something to add to my arsenal, this seminar was the exception. The first day, everything focused on an informal meet and greet session, with barbeque. NO training. The second day, training began at around 10 if I remember correctly, and the whole shooting match was over by about 3. The actual amount of training time that any student could have absorbed anything new or get clarification on was about an hour tops. Then the main focus was getting ready to go out to eat and party together. I declined going out to party with any of these guys. I packed my stuff and headed home. I cant say how Sunday morning went, cause I was gone, as was my motivation for IKCA kenpo, its founders, and the members that I met.

In my opinion,The material the IKCA teaches is subpar to EPAK material. 55 techniques and some training drills that were not anything new, nothing special. Not nearly enough volume. Some of the techniques are flawed in their basic premise, and against unwilling opponents, will not work. The whole spontaneity argument all the IKCA adds tout as their big selling point is not any more prevelant in the IKCA material then in any martial arts system.

If a person so chooses to find a system of kenpo that is not EPAK, has less volume, and is based in EPAK principles, I would suggest finding a copy of John McSweeney's system on video. It is not EPAK, but employees many of the EPAK principles and concepts while offering the practitioner a different and smaller curriculum.

WHen it all comes down to it, each of us is going to do what makes us happy. We are gonna follow the path we choose. For an ever growing group, the IKCA is that path. For me, it wasnt. I am happy with the choices I have made, as you are I am sure. Whatever works. The only thing I see as a real problem is that those IKCA'ers that keep touting the same tired quotes of "I'd Rather Have 10 Techniques,....................." and " A punch was a PUnch ,............." are all doing so to some how validate the IKCA system to the world. Kenpo and martial arts in general are proven in combat. Not at tournaments, not on video, but in the heat of the moment,with blade drawn, bottles busted, and blood flowing.

IN closing, IKCA kenpo is not Ed Parker's American Kenpo. It should not be presented as such. It serves the members of its group very well, as is displayed by the popularity of its convenience. If you are not wanting to learn EPAK, then by all means have at the IKCA. If you do want to learn EPAK, then find an instructor, buy the videos, read the books, and get on board. Just dont say that your IKCA is just as good, or the SAM TING as EPAK, cause its not. No validation is needed, do your thing. Finaly, yes, I would say anything I have said in this post , face-to-face, to anyone, including the IKCA founders.

Respectfully,
Gary Catherman

 

[bdparsons]

Gary,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the IKCA. I'm glad you found out quickly that the IKCA was not for you.

As I read of your in-person experience I can appreciate your frustration at the time. I can also say that I have experienced almost none of the things you mentioned, and those that I have experienced are not restricted to the IKCA (such as a bit of colored belt hero worship). Over the past nine to ten years the IKCA has matured as an organization and has changed more than you think.

Finally, once again I must point out that the IKCA does not try to pass itself off as EPAK as most people currently define it. I believe that's pretty evident from Mr. Sullivan's own description. As to your assertion about being in it for the money, if that was your impression that's unfortunate. It just doesn't line up with the facts.

As you have said before, I think we shall agree to disagree. I hope you enjoy your journey.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Mark Weiser]

He planned to have a small corp of instructors from different parts of the country with established schools who would leave their business on a regular schedule and travel within their "area." Their focus would be to service these clubs for the purpose of administering periodic instruction and grading for rank in support of the video. The videos were only meant to provide direction in between instructor visits.


Wow I have been saying this to others for awhile. I wish this had occurred. Thanks for the input. Are there any Kenpo Schools or Associations that is doing this? If so Let me know.

 

[Big Pat]

Thank you Mr. Catherman for the excellent reply. I now fully understand why you are displeased with the IKCA-I would be too under those circumstances. When I started Kenpo under Mr. Jeff English in the mid seventies the school and curriculum were both listed as "Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo". A short time later the students were offered the oppourtunity to join the IKKA and with the issuing of the Accumulative journal the curriculum was listed as "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate" ( not yet "American"). Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo is what I started in, so thats the term I have always used. It is interesting and I guess I do use the term to compare the two systems.

I use EKP RIP as a simple prayer for him. After all these years I still regret not taking the oppourtunites to meet Mr.Parker. I must plead youthfull ignorance.

I fully understand the problems of training in the martial arts alone. I myself have not trained in any formal class setting in over twenty years. When I wanted to renew my Kenpo a few years ago I looked at a variety of the tapes that were available and picked the IKCA mainly because of the seniority of Mr. Sullivan and the simplicity of the system. It worked for me,things came back quicker than I thought they should-though I still move like an old weight lifter and strength coach. The only way to become truly proficient in the martial arts is to have the weekly toe to toe interaction with a wide variety of training partners. I think the IKCA system does offer the chance to learn good Kenpo basics and develop ASP (accuracy, speed and power), but it's all up to the individual to put forth the effort by themself.

It is refreshing to hear that you would communicate face to face what you post here. I am sure you would do so in a respectful and thoughtful manner, as your post today reflects. I guaranty a lot would not or could not do so. Thank you again for posting your perspective on your IKCA experience. :asian:

EKP RIP
Big Pat
aka Patrick Luskin

 

[mliddy]

Perhaps it is not wise to bump this topic up the list again but I have to make the following observation.

In this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23276&referrerid=1385 many people are discussing the (in their opinion) very obvious flaws in the technique of the students being filmed.

It seems to me this is a good example of where reviewing video tapes of people performing techniques can be used as an excellent aid to learning.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps it is not wise to bump this topic up the list again but I have to make the following observation.

In this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23276&referrerid=1385 many people are discussing the (in their opinion) very obvious flaws in the technique of the students being filmed.

It seems to me this is a good example of where reviewing video tapes of people performing techniques can be used as an excellent aid to learning.

First off...please feel free to post on any topic you wish. If looking through some old posts, you come across something you find interesting, by all means, post a reply! There is nothing wrong with bringing an old thread back to life! :ultracool

As for videos...yes, they can be a good resource. They should however be able to show some explaination of technique and be performed in a much better fashion that what was shown here.

As I said...I tip my hat to those that put clips online. It should be expected that people will give feedback, both good and bad. If I went through the trouble of putting something online, I'd want it to be quality material.

Mike

 

[Doc]

... When I started Kenpo under Mr. Jeff English ...

I remember Jeff. Nice young man.

in the mid seventies the school and curriculum were both listed as "Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo". A short time later the students were offered the oppourtunity to join the IKKA and with the issuing of the Accumulative journal the curriculum was listed as "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate" ( not yet "American").

A great many misconceptions exist around all the different names that Ed Parker called his various arts over the years. Indeed "Chinese Kenpo" was one of them. In fact the name "Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate" was what the commercial art was called. At various points the "American" name was put in by various groups and individuals, however was never actually supposed to be used with ED Parker's name.

"Kenpo Karate" represented his art upon his first arrival from Hawaii. That is what his instructor William Chow was calling it at the time Parker left. However it wasn't very long before Parker made a personal conversion to "Chinese Kenpo," to bring his art in line with his own direction and study. This is during the period when he wrote "Secrets of Chinese Karate." At some point he planned to "Americanize" his Chinese Kenpo and part of that process was eliminating other than English and American references in the art. But he still had not re-attached the word "karate" formally to his art out of respect for his now deep Chinese roots and teachers.

When the decision to create a commercial component was made, then and only then did Parker re-attach the work "Karate" to his new art represented by the dissemination of "Big Red" or what was formally known as the "Accumulative Journal." However Parker purposely omitted "American" from the commercial name because, for him that represented his personal art that was an ongoing development. Over the years every combination possible of the various terms were used by various schools, instructors, and students to describe Parker's many arts, but it never ever was "Ed Parker's American Kenpo-Karate."

Part of the confusion was created by Parker himself, who at various times in his life changed his mind and position on pretty much everything. Part of that persisted because when Parker intially designed and purchased his "new uniform crest" to replace the "Old Pine Tree" patch he inherited, it said "Kenpo Karate," and at one time everyone associated with Parker wore it.

This too contributed confusion. When Parker had this patch made by "Okeh Embroidery" in the 6000 block in Los Angeles on South Vermont Street, they gave him a tremendous deal if he would purchase several thousand patches. He did, and subsequently became "stuck" with them and ultimately it's out dated design. Although the patch intially was "state of the art" and represented one of the best looking patches around, its large size and odd shape for the time, mandated by Parker's design was difficult to manufacture, and that's what prompted the "deal" for the larger numbers.

Years later Parker wanted to change the patches. After all he had his son Edmund who could clean up the design, and manufacturers now with computerized equipment could actually make the patch look like the original artistic representation, instead of the odd shaped, semi-rounded, and disproportionate product first created and still exists in bootleg copies today.

 

[Big Pat]

Thank you Dr. Chapel for your input. :asian: I always like to hear the history of Mr. Parker's art. His journey and studies to improve his Kenpo are very interesting.

EKP RIP
Big Pat

 

[Doc]

Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.



Tsk, tsk... A lot easier to take uninformed cheap shots than it is to try and speak intelligently, isn't it?

As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

A lot of rude and nasty remarks for someone you don't know who hasn't really said anything at all. There isn't anyhthing I write here I would have a problem saying to anyone's face, including yours sir. of course I haven't said anything on this string - yet! Those who know me know I haven't never been shy about expressing my opinion, and that includes the Old Man himself.

 

[Doc]

This too contributed confusion. When Parker had this patch made by "Okeh Embroidery" in the 6000 block in Los Angeles on South Vermont Street, they gave him a tremendous deal if he would purchase several thousand patches. He did, and subsequently became "stuck" with them and ultimately it's out dated design. Although the patch intially was "state of the art" and represented one of the best looking patches around, its large size and odd shape for the time, mandated by Parker's design was difficult to manufacture, and that's what prompted the "deal" for the larger numbers.

You guys know how I like to be accurate and concise, so I did some homework, looked through my files, and discovered I made an error. the name of the company that made Mr. Parker's patches was "Standard Swiss Embroidery" located in Los Angeles at 4801 So. Vermont Ave. Sorry for the error.

 

[Jagdish]

Sir:

Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community. What do you think Mr.Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such? Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sir:

Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community. What do you think Mr.Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such? Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.

Yours,

Jagdish

That may still be true in Spain. In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.

 

[Kenpodoc]

That may still be true in Spain. In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.

It may not be true now but I'm pretty sure it was true 50 years ago when Mr. Parker was starting his journey in the chinese arts. I was never fortunate enough to meet him but he clearly had talent, a respect for others, a tolerance of others different than himself (rare enough now, probably extremely unusual then.), and the charisma to make others want to share with him.

Jeff

 

[Jagdish]

That may still be true in Spain. In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.

Excuse my lack of explanation. I was referring to the early years (50's).Am i clear, now?

Also one point, advance material is not showed to everybody. Even if you research chinese history, usually one pupil got to be shown the whole system.

And also do not confuse the present commercialism in chinese arts.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Excuse my lack of explanation. I was referring to the early years (50's).Am i clear, now?

Also one point, advance material is not showed to everybody. Even if you research chinese history, usually one pupil got to be shown the whole system.

And also do not confuse the present commercialism in chinese arts.

Yours,

Jagdish

Parker Hawaiian. Not the same as White.

 

[Doc]

Sir:

Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community.

And its still true today as much as it was then, however modern Chinese arts have taken on the same commercialism as everyone else. Even in China the government promotes a Budhists Monk Shaolin Show for the tourists and has a traveling road show much like the Cirque Du Soleil. That's where "Wu Shu" comes from. A created performance Art has taken over because it makes money and fulfills the expectations of westerners as to what "Kung fu training" is about even in the east. Real masters, Chinese or otherwise, are hard to come by everywhere.

What do you think Mr. Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such?

First of all he wasn't a "haole" and the "Chow" connection meant something in certain circles. Parker was very smart, likable, and learned very fast. However the initial school where he landed was Ark Wong's Kwoon in Los Angeles's Chinatown, the same school where I started. This was an "open" school of the day but they only taught what they wanted to who they wanted. It wasn't until I left there and met Parker did he put what I had learned into a context I could begin to try to understand.

Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.
Yours,
Jagdish

And its still that way. Nothing has changed. The problem is some think what they are getting is "advanced information." Everything is relative, and from my perspective I don't see it. Of course you have to define what is advanced for yourself.

Bottom line is the sense of entitlement pervades most societies, and everyone feels they "have" the right to be able to do everything. That's why "video instruction" is so popular. Real masters think its a joke, but then others convince themselves of its worth because that is what they want to do, and they are "entitled" to somehow learn or teach and/or make money. The truth is you could go your entire life and never be exposed to someone who actually has advanced information, and you will never get it from a book or film no matter what. Of course if your standards are low enough, you may be satisfied. Yeah Bruce Lee screwed everybody and convinced people you could boune around a create your own "system." The truth is you can create your own personal art designed just for you, but teaching others is another story. For myself, I've been as lucky as any guy could be, and been exposed to and studied with significant masters. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't exist anymore. Understand from my perspective, starting the arts in the fifties, and watching some claim "advanced or streamlined information" simply because of lineage and/or longevity, is a huge joke.