IKCA in Action

[bdparsons]

Just to let folks know that the IKCA has put up a free 45 minute video of highlights from the 2004 West Coast Kenpo Confederation held this past July 30th. This years gathering will be held on August 6th.

You don't live in a vaccum; why keep your Kenpo perspective in one?

http://www.karateconnection.com/videoclips.html

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[clapping_tiger]

I am coming late on this topic, but I just wanted to bring in my support for the IKCA. Mr. Parsons pretty much covered everything plus more than I have said. My question is, have you ever trained or met an IKCA student? If not, then what are you basing your opinion on? You can't judge the skill of people you have not met, or trained with. Granted some don't cut it, and some just scrap by. But this is not the case with all. That is the same mentality as people who want to nuke the middle east because their all Terrorists.

 

[The Kai]

there is bound to be a spectrum of the mail order black belts. Some will be good some will be bad. I don't think anybody could say that there is no good black belts to come out these programs. I think the idea is that Video is a poor way to transmit the art, correct detail, physical re tool, teach nuances, and is more open to abuse (allthough it semms that could be argued too). It's not the technology, or the idea that something might change-the question is mail order bb's done for quality control or the $$$??

 

[Seabrook]

I watched one of the segments...very interesting with some excellent quality instruction.

It was neat seeing Vic teach, as well as Steve Sanders (Mohammad).

 

[The Kai]

My question is, have you ever trained or met an IKCA student

Have you ever worked outside of the IKCA?

 

[clapping_tiger]

That's a valid question
Sure I have, but nothing long term. Quite a few years ago I started at a school that claimed to teach Kenpo (A long story in of itself). At the time I didn't know any different, but the school actually taught some type of traditional Japanese Karate, but I don't know what the style was. Someone told me but I don't remember. I have also attended some non kenpo seminars ( escrima, Tony Blauer SPEAR based seminar), and have worked out on occasion with a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Have also worked very closely, although I have not joined the classes, with 2 instructors and some students in Combat Hapkido. So aside from the Japanese karate school (which I hated, not because of the style but because of the instructor), I have not joined any other schools, but I have seen what they have to offer, trained with them here and there.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Just to let folks know that the IKCA has put up a free 45 minute video of highlights from the 2004 West Coast Kenpo Confederation held this past July 30th. This years gathering will be held on August 6th.

You don't live in a vaccum; why keep your Kenpo perspective in one?

http://www.karateconnection.com/videoclips.html

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

I saw this when Vic came to the school last time. Pretty neat, I wish I could have been there.

 

[The Kai]

Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it. So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on? Number of Kata, techniques? Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved! I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.

Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)

 

[bdparsons]

Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it. So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on? Number of Kata, techniques? Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved! I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.

Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)

Todd,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Working out here and there doesn't cut it. It amazes me that folks assume you get through the IKCA program by working out occasionally, whenever the fancy hits you. (Oh, CSI's preempted this week, guess I'll plug in an IKCA tape to learn what a ball kick is.) I'm sure those who struggle through the distance learning program, or never get very far in it, do just that. But I'm here to tell ya friend, if you want to get anywhere with it you have to structure your time and be disciplined just as in any serious training program. A strong sense of self-motivation is absolutely necessary to advance in the IKCA program. I base my statements on the validity of good, accountable teaching by the IKCA on personal experience. I base it on seeing the failure rates of the video tests submitted. I base it on seeing belts of all different levels from all over the world coming together and demonstrating a proficiency and standardization as good as any school I've witnessed. I base it on seeing those turned away from the IKCA because they wanted things handed to them.

If folks would take the time to investigate the IKCA curriculum they'd find it based very strongly on the concepts and principles of Kenpo, because it is Kenpo.

I'd also like to piggy-back on what Brenda said. The program requires you demonstrate proficiency on a warm body, to include techniques demonstration, extension demonstration and free sparring matches. It does not occur in isolation, not does it occur without correction. To respond to Mr. Crouch I would say that I find it hard to comprehend someone would try to bring in a warm body just for filming the tests without working with a body repeatedly, again and again beforehand. You'd get as far doing that as you would doing it the morning of a test in front of a examination board in a school.

As a side note, you'll find a strong agreement from me concerning Combat Hapkido.

BTW, I noticed on another thread you're a student of Bruce Juchnik? When, where and how did you study with him? He was my very first Kenpo instructor back in 1972. Great guy then, and I'm sure he still is today.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Istitute

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Oddly enough Bill, I was supposed to be in this video. I was watching it last night and thought OMG, there's Mike, Tracy, Bill LOL. Those guys used to be training partners and we were all USAF at the time, hence the short hair LOL.


http://www.kenpohomestudycourse.com/kenpo/previewintrohi.htm


DarK LorD

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, I watched the video. The instructors -- guys who came up pre-video -- move about as one would expect. A lot of the guys in the background? I rest my case...and the damning evidence was presented by the defense. The mechanics of motion, timing, etc., ...looking like they need more face time.

Regards,

Dave

 

[clapping_tiger]

Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it. So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on? Number of Kata, techniques? Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved! I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.

Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)

I think most, but not all, people who find a style or system they like pretty much stick with that as their main art, and branch off from there in seminars or camps or whatever. I never wanted to become fully vested in another art, just help round things out a little bit. Some take on another art and add on that way. I have got everything I have wanted and expected from the Kenpo I have learned. There may be some confusion and it seems like you may be under the impression that I learned and trained via video. This is not the case for me. I was lucky enough to find a school and I learned from a certified instructor, of which is in the video. I have had the opportunity to train with several people of different ages, sizes, builds, and intensity. We do all the same drills that AK practitioners talk about, and the sets. We also do 2 man sets for each belt level, and to be able to test for the next rank you have beat time limits and hit all the proper targets. I never have said that video training was the best way to go, but it is an option for some, it would not have been for me. As far as the Combat Hapkido, anything I have been shown, we have some form of it in our curriculum. And TKD does not fit into what I want and it doesn't interest me, that is why it never really went any further. I just realized that you were asking me if I have ever trained outside the IKCA in my Kenpo training. And that answer is no. It's not that I wouldn't, or that I think the IKCA's system is better. But it all comes down to what is available in this area and costs. I don't know of any AK schools in my area of Wisconsin. I don't disagree with all that you say, as a matter of fact I agree with most of it. But I wouldn't classify the IKCA system as "mail order" kenpo. There are a lot of people just like me who train at or own schools. Many come from other arts, other kenpo organizations, or have studied multiple styles. If you have something against video testing that is fine, and I can see your point. But don't group the whole association into the "mail order" category.

 

[The Kai]

Like I said working out is school is always the best option....

IKCA has made thier "mark" with thier Video Courses, yes. Vic Laruix (sp?) has gone on in Black Belt Magazine about how the mail course people are better than those he has trained in person? I realize that the IKCA has resources for those that want to go further.
As far as Local stuff, for years i have brought Kenpo teachers in to date oher Kenpo schools that have attended? (0).

BTW I ahve worked with Hanshi juchnik, to say i am a student is probably a bit much. Though Hanshi has opened many doors for me. did I learn from his tapes? Oh no, here's the corner i painted myself into! Of course I had been in the arts for about 17 years when i met hanshi-which gave me the base I needed

 

[clapping_tiger]

Like I said working out is school is always the best option....

IKCA has made thier "mark" with thier Video Courses, yes. Vic Laruix (sp?) has gone on in Black Belt Magazine about how the mail course people are better than those he has trained in person? I realize that the IKCA has resources for those that want to go further.
As far as Local stuff, for years i have brought Kenpo teachers in to date oher Kenpo schools that have attended? (0).

BTW I ahve worked with Hanshi juchnik, to say i am a student is probably a bit much. Though Hanshi has opened many doors for me. did I learn from his tapes? Oh no, here's the corner i painted myself into! Of course I had been in the arts for about 17 years when i met hanshi-which gave me the base I needed

I agree that the IKCA has made their mark with the video courses, and I am sure what BBM wrote was taken out of context, but I could be wrong because you never know unless you were there. I have heard him say statements about how good some of the video guys are, but I have never heard him say that the video guys were better than the ones trained in person.

I am missing the point on the local stuff, I am not sure what you are saying.

 

[bdparsons]

Oddly enough Bill, I was supposed to be in this video. I was watching it last night and thought OMG, there's Mike, Tracy, Bill LOL. Those guys used to be training partners and we were all USAF at the time, hence the short hair LOL.

Clyde - Good old Air force days, huh? You guys were at George AFB right? I was there back in the mid-70s when they had F-4s and F-105s, worked munitions. Before you rookies came along! BTW, thanks for the book, it's already been a benefit.

Well, I watched the video. The instructors -- guys who came up pre-video -- move about as one would expect. A lot of the guys in the background? I rest my case...and the damning evidence was presented by the defense. The mechanics of motion, timing, etc., ...looking like they need more face time.

Dave - Thanks for taking the time, some folks would just rather spout off. Just curious, which clip was it you watched? Not gonna argue the point anymore, you've got your position and I've got mine. Just wish you wouldn't lump us all in the same boat and take each individual as they come. Hope you're able to get back up to par soon.

BTW I ahve worked with Hanshi juchnik, to say i am a student is probably a bit much. Though Hanshi has opened many doors for me. did I learn from his tapes? Oh no, here's the corner i painted myself into! Of course I had been in the arts for about 17 years when i met hanshi-which gave me the base I needed.

Todd - I understand your point. Not that I agree obviously. I think you may be surprised how much an inexperienced person could accurately pick up off even the most casual viewing of most good martial arts tapes. Hope you enjoy the journey with Bruce.

Respects to all,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[still learning]

Hello, Really enjoy the videos. Is it or is it not a good way to train? from Videos? Um, It does have it's place. But I believe we all know it can't beat real live training with a person of knowledge guiding you.

If videos were that good most of us would us them? Do you agree? It does have a place? I found by viewing many of them, we do learn a few things. Our knowledge should be not limited and Videos,books,seminars do have a place in this knowledge of learning as much as we can. ...just my thoughts...Aloha

 

[The Kai]

 I think you may be surprised how much an inexperienced person could accurately pick up off even the most casual viewing of most good martial arts tapes.

lets say a student comes to class twice a week, during one class you point out 2 things to correct, or details that were overlooked. Alright, that's 4 corrections a week, or 16 a month. Most lower belt testings take place over a 3 month span. That's 50 corrections or details, right? With video testing there is no correction. Kenpo is a not only a learning process, but a unlearning process too. Chance upon the right way, sure and randomly typing makes up a novel!

My perception(opinion, dogma)is that most mail order karate happens not because you can't find kenpo. But convienance and the idea that "I'm going into a basemaont and not coming out till you call me sensei"mentality. The "apprientiship" of the ma's is oftenmost the most critical stage, yet hated stage.

 

[The Kai]

You may train for a long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do." - Gichin Funakoshi

Sorry to double post, but remembered this quote

 

[bdparsons]

Excellent points. If I may address a couple:

In video testing there is no correction. Kenpo is a not only a learning process, but a unlearning process too.

Again, I can only speak to the IKCA processes. Correction is in fact an integral part of their distance learning program. As part of a critque, just like the face-to-face environment should work, corrections are given. More importantly, progression through the system is not allowed until the individual demonstrates the corrections have been made.

I totally agree with "unlearning" being part of the process. In fact, that's why some folks with martial arts experience have difficulty with the IKCA, because the necessity of demonstrating they have in fact "unlearned" bad habits is a sticking point for them. I would assume that even with your 17 years experience, when you began viewing and learning Bruce Juchnik's teachings you may have had to "unlearn" a thing or two? How did you know when you had it right? More importantly, how did Mr. Juchnik know when you had it right? What would your response had been if he had said, "Todd, it's gonna be a while before we are able to meet face to face. Do me a favor and shoot a video of yourself executing x-y-z from different angles so I can tell if you've assimilated the corrections we talked about last time we were together." This in fact is the process the distance learning program of the IKCA.

My perception(opinion, dogma)is that most mail order karate happens not because you can't find kenpo. But convienance and the idea that "I'm going into a basemaont and not coming out till you call me sensei" mentality. The "apprenticeship" of the ma's is oftenmost the most critical stage, yet hated stage.

Valid concerns and points, and I think dogma is an appropriate term to use. I'm not saying that the basement scenario doesn't/can't happen. It's up to the individual program to police themselves to try and keep that very thing from happening.

____________
Let me say that from this point forward folks are certainly welcome to PM me if they want to argue/discuss the pros or cons of the IKCA distance learning program. Though I'm sure I will argue the pros and cons of distance learning again on this forum, for this thread I'm done.

One final point: Face-to face instruction is ALWAYS the best option. I personally have never held any other position. But if that is not an option I would encourage anyone who even considers a martial arts distance learning program to look for a program that strictly holds you accountable for ALL the material you should learn. Don't think you can study in a vaccum. Work consistently with another warm body, and work hard contact on a heavy bag or dummy. Learning an art such as Kenpo in the air (by video or in a school) will only allow you to defeat opponents made of air. Be wise, be careful and be safe.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[The Kai]

Again Hanshi Jucnik is not really my teacher, I have done a lot of seminars with him. As to your scenerio, I have been approached to tape myself by others for "evaluation". Something i never do. We do not learn or add things into the school that we pick up from Video, it has to be via personal contact (we do keep video as a reminder). Anarchranistic, probably. But we know the Whys, the hows, the concepts behind everything and how it should be done

Unlearning stuff is a difficult process, as a simple story haow many times have you been told that you drop your hands when you punch, or drop your guard when you avoid a sweep. How many times have you been hit with the counter punch and can't figure out why?? How long do you want to spend figuring this out on your own?

Again Video allows you to se the obvious, obvert,general movement