IKCA Karate Connection.

[Basicman]

Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster? A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch? How come then it takes many years to become a black belt? Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material. Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.

Playing a video games only involves your hands and mind, while doing a technique involves your entire body. Also, playing a video game does make someone belive they are in a Fight or Flight scenario. SOrry not the same.

 

[Hand Sword]

Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster? A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch? How come then it takes many years to become a black belt? Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material. Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.

Playing a video games only involves your hands and mind, while doing a technique involves your entire body. Also, playing a video game does make someone belive they are in a Fight or Flight scenario. SOrry not the same.

Right on!

 

[Seabrook]

Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster? A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch? How come then it takes many years to become a black belt? Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material. Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.

I don't agree with you on this one. I find the students are able to learn techniques easier (and quicker) once they have moved up several ranks.

Why the delay in years to get to black belt? That is obvious. When you teach the entire EPAK curriculum, complete with all the forms, sets, self-defenses, there is a heck of a lot for students to learn. Additionally, what happens if someone can only make it in once per week? Clearly, how often you train will be a reflection of how quickly one get's promoted.

Some students, for example, train twice weekly. One class they attend may focus on self-defense, while the other strictly sparring. In this hypothetical, but reasonable scenario, how in the world can one obtain a Kenpo black belt in a short amount of time?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Hand Sword]

To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, so please don't get angry, isn't the Kenpo of the IKCA the early form of what would become EPAK? I thought I heard it explained that way, and that version would have less than the future version, after Mr. Parker's experimenting, and refining.

 

[Kenpodoc]

To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

This would be true if Kenpo were the techniques themselves. I think that Mr. Parkers Kenpo is something more than just the techniques/forms/sets. The system as Mr. Parker set it up was a means of sharing information with a large group of schools. A very clever and effective idea but I'm sure that he would have admitted it incomplete and at the same time not the only available path. IKCA is not EPAK but Mr. Sullivan never says it is. He does say that it is his way of sharing what he learned from his teacher. As to a basic but inadequate understanding of the system I believe that this would relate to the teacher, the student and their interaction with each other.

respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, so please don't get angry, isn't the Kenpo of the IKCA the early form of what would become EPAK? I thought I heard it explained that way, and that version would have less than the future version, after Mr. Parker's experimenting, and refining.

I believe that rather than just an early version of EPAK the IKCA is the distillation of Mr. Sullivan's and Mr. LeRoux's understanding of kenpo as Mr. Parker taught them. I believe that they both studied with Mr. Parker to the end of his life.

Jeff

 

[The Kai]

I think they split off from parker, that is why the IKCA is a earlier version of parker's kenpo

 

[bdparsons]

CONCERNING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ED PARKER AND THE FOUNDERS OF THE KARATE CONNECTION:

Though there were times of inactivity in the relationship between Mr. Parker and Mr. Sullivan/Mr. LeRoux, there was never a "split off". The founders of the Karate Connection remained loyal to Mr. Parker until the time of his death.

CONCERNING THE IKCA CURRICULUM:

The following is taken from the History page of the IKCA website, written by Chuck Sullivan:

Some people thought Ed Parker added all the techniques he did for financial gain, to keep his students with him longer. I don't believe that for a second. I truly believe he kept creating new techniques simply because so many of his Black Belts insisted upon it. They wanted more, so he gave them more. The problem came when those techniques were passed on to the new students. The system became a monster.

Digging back into time I remembered something the Old Man said way, way back. He said, "I'd rather have ten techniques I can fight with than a hundred techniques that fight me". That became the Karate Connection's quest.

We had to analyze somewhere over three hundred techniques, that we had been teaching over the years and get rid of the excess baggage. We had to eliminate the repetitious and weaker techniques. Others we could reformulate into techniques that still contained the original concepts and principles. Some we were able to use as they were but no matter what we did, we knew that above all we had to retain the full essence of Kenpo, otherwise it would mean nothing.

We created a chart that went from wall to wall and two years later everything we wanted to teach was on that chart. Being able to see the entire system at once was the only method that was workable. Every time we wanted to see if a principle or concept had been covered we didn't have to read through reams of pages. Of course after a time we became so familiarized with that chart we could go directly to what we were looking for.

Whether you agree with what Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux did or not, whether you are impressed with students of theirs you have seen or not, one thing must be remembered. They did what they did with the full knowledge and blessing of Mr. Parker. With Mr. Parker's consent and support they developed and implemented a curriculum of Kenpo that refined the system they had learned back down to its most effective basics. Though the amount of material was reduced, it still incorporates all Kenpo principles and concepts. In the end the new curriculum (all the curriculum, not just what is on the tapes) resembles the original teachings of Mr. Parker from the early 1960's, with the benefit of having kept the best of how Kenpo had evolved over the years.

CONCERNING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AMERICAN KENPO AND IKCA KENPO:
Some will disagree with my assessment, and that is their perogative. But to those that say the IKCA teaches a system of Kenpo that is lacking I respectfully ask... Where is it lacking? In what respect is it lacking? Is it in the concepts? The principles? The execution? Or is it just in the amount of material? Nearly everyone I've asked these questions of respond with generalities or vague statements, I really would prefer to hear specifics.

I'm doing my best to pick apart the system I've learned. When I hear an American Kenpoist describe something I ask myself, "Is this addressed in some way, somewhere in our system?" Admittedly, we do not use the complete terminology of American Kenpo, and at times that hinders the discussion a bit. But what I have found is when we come to an agreement about what we are discussing, I can usually point out where and what in the IKCA sysytem applies to the discussion, physical or conceptual, and be able to engage the issue from that point forward. In these discussions I'm reassured concerning the IKCA system because there are very, very few times when I'm at a loss to discuss a facet of Kenpo intelligently. Sometimes I've got to do a little research and digging, but very, very seldom. I don't credit this to have anything to do with me, but more with the system I've learned and continue to learn more about all the time. I'm of the firm conviction that the Kenpo system I practice is good, solid Kenpo, through and through. Though I certainly don't profess to know everything there is to know about Kenpo, one thing I can recognize is good Kenpo. In my opinion, IKCA Kenpo, properly executed, falls into that category.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The IKCA and the reduced Kenpo curriculum = tastes great, less fulfilling.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The IKCA presents two major changes to the normal EPAK approach.

1) Fewer techniques

2) Video instruction.

I would argue that the number of techniques is not the most important factor in building Kenpo proficiency. If it were, then Tracy's practitioners would gernerally be more proficient than EPAK practitioners.

The more important factor is the weakness of video instruction. It is just not the best method for learning martial arts. It can be a good suplement to dojo training, but cannot replace it.

What is the proof? Visit EPAK schools: proficiency varies but is generally high. Visit Tracy schools: proficiency varies but is generally high. Visit IKCA schools: proficiency varies but generally sucks.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

P.S. My nephew is a TKD Black Belt at a school that has added the IKCA curriculum. He kicks well, but his Kenpo sucks.

 

[Sapper6]

it concerns me that each time i read a thread about the IKCA i see all the Parker kenpoists yapping about about bad it sucks. i would much rather have 55 techniques and solid basics i was proficient in than 154 techniques i'm not proficient in. since when did the number of techniques determine the systems value? if this is the case, the Tracy's bury the Parker people. but i don't believe this is the case at all. the practitioner makes the art, NOT vice versa. i've seen some very piss poor EPAK students. is that to say EPAK sucks? of course not.

the biggest complaint i see about the IKCA is the video instruction idea. lots of EPAK kenpoists have produced videos. do they all suck as well? the way i see it, Sullivan and LeRoux have taken a small peice of what they got from EPAK and reconfigured it to suit their organization. how is this any different than what Ed Parker himself did to his own art by restructuring it to help it sell? they are not calling it Ed Parker's American Kenpo. so what's the problem? there are folks who want to claim that Sullivan is only in it for the $$ and nothing else. not the way i see it. the entire system via video costs less than $200.00. not quite the money mongers you claim them to be IMO. have you seen the cost of "When Kenpo Strikes" by Tatum? $719.00. of course Mr. Tatum doesn't offer a certification with those tapes. so is that the ultimate complaint? that Sullivan offers a belt certification with the systems? who cares.

to those interested in practicing kenpo the IKCA way: order the free preview tape. watch it, pick up the phone and call them personally. question them. if you decide it's for you, then do it. if you don't, then don't. but don't think you can get away from practicing and working your stuff. you must bust your tail to become proficient, period. again, the practitioner makes the art!

and to the folks who like to shed negative criticism on the topic. cut it out. does it make you a better martial artist? are you above these people? how many students do you have in your OWN school who have problems with form, technique, or foundation? and don't say none. lacking in these areas is not limited to the folks who video train. it's everywhere! and again i say TRAIN.
what ever happened to humility and humbleness? show respect even if you don't agree with it. trash talking the IKCA is no different than saying TKD or Goju sucks. it's blatantly disrespectful. allow each and every curious practitioner to find out on their own if it's right for them.

i have never studied the IKCA program. i've never had anything to do with it. but i will keep an open mind and be respectful. what about the rest of you?

my name is Sapper6 and i approved this message.

:asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sapper6 makes good points. Mr. Sullivan do not charge nearly enough to be accused of being money hungry. (I believe that they have a right to earn a good living.) And they remain loyal to Mr. Parker.

Jeff

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

it concerns me that each time i read a thread about the IKCA i see all the Parker kenpoists yapping about about bad it sucks.

I am not a Parker Kenpoist. But I think the IKCA method sucks.

i would much rather have 55 techniques and solid basics i was proficient in than 154 techniques i'm not proficient in. since when did the number of techniques determine the systems value? if this is the case, the Tracy's bury the Parker people. but i don't believe this is the case at all.

I agree that the number of techniques is less important than solid basics and the ability to apply them.

the practitioner makes the art, NOT vice versa. i've seen some very piss poor EPAK students. is that to say EPAK sucks? of course not.

It is a rare practitioner who can completely overcome bad instruction or a weak art. If you have a solid art, a good instructor, then the practitioner can excel.

the biggest complaint i see about the IKCA is the video instruction idea. lots of EPAK kenpoists have produced videos. do they all suck as well? the way i see it, Sullivan and LeRoux have taken a small peice of what they got from EPAK and reconfigured it to suit their organization.

Yes, lots of people have produced videos. These videos are designed to augment and supplement instruction and practice, not to replace it.

how is this any different than what Ed Parker himself did to his own art by restructuring it to help it sell? they are not calling it Ed Parker's American Kenpo. so what's the problem? there are folks who want to claim that Sullivan is only in it for the $$ and nothing else. not the way i see it. the entire system via video costs less than $200.00. not quite the money mongers you claim them to be IMO. have you seen the cost of "When Kenpo Strikes" by Tatum? $719.00.

Regardless of how Ed Parker restructured the art, he taught people in person and encouraged his students to teach people in person. And, he didn't promote based solely on a video tape.

of course Mr. Tatum doesn't offer a certification with those tapes. so is that the ultimate complaint? that Sullivan offers a belt certification with the systems? who cares.

Yes, exactly. When people are promoted with minimal proficiency, what do those outside of the system think about it? They think it sucks. McDojo’s with low standards give Kenpo a bad name.

to those interested in practicing kenpo the IKCA way: order the free preview tape. watch it, pick up the phone and call them personally. question them. if you decide it's for you, then do it. if you don't, then don't. but don't think you can get away from practicing and working your stuff. you must bust your tail to become proficient, period. again, the practitioner makes the art!

Why not skip the phone call and video tape and go train at a real dojo?

and to the folks who like to shed negative criticism on the topic. cut it out. does it make you a better martial artist? are you above these people? how many students do you have in your OWN school who have problems with form, technique, or foundation? and don't say none. lacking in these areas is not limited to the folks who video train. it's everywhere! and again i say TRAIN.

No, it doesn’t make me a better martial artist. But it might help others from going down the wrong path, getting a bogus promotion, and embarrassing hard-working rank-deserving Kenpoists.

what ever happened to humility and humbleness? show respect even if you don't agree with it. trash talking the IKCA is no different than saying TKD or Goju sucks. it's blatantly disrespectful. allow each and every curious practitioner to find out on their own if it's right for them.

Some TKD and Goju schools do suck. And yes, I’m disrespectful. Respect has to be earned. Rank awards for videotaped demonstrations with minimal proficiency requirements does not deserve my respect.

i have never studied the IKCA program. i've never had anything to do with it. but i will keep an open mind and be respectful. what about the rest of you?

my name is Sapper6 and i approved this message.

:asian:

Well, if you visit an IKCA school, or see the results of their training in action, then you would make up your mind and you might no longer be respectful. The thread asked the question about what people think of the IKCA and people who are familiar with what they do are responding. Since you are unfamiliar with what they do, why are you responding?

 

[Sapper6]

I am not a Parker Kenpoist. But I think the IKCA method sucks.

good for you my friend. very easy to cast judgment from the outside isn't it.

I agree that the number of techniques is less important than solid basics and the ability to apply them.

indeed.

It is a rare practitioner who can completely overcome bad instruction or a weak art. If you have a solid art, a good instructor, then the practitioner can excel.

and how does this exclude the IKCA? the instructor element is still there via tape. i believe Sullivan himself responds personally via a tape back to you telling you what you lack in. if you don't pass, you don't get the belt. and btw, you left out practice in your list above.

Yes, lots of people have produced videos. These videos are designed to augment and supplement instruction and practice, not to replace it.

sure they have a different purpose. is that stated on the video? is that in the disclaimer? no, it is not.

Regardless of how Ed Parker restructured the art, he taught people in person and encouraged his students to teach people in person. And, he didn't promote based solely on a video tape.

Parker, just like any instructor, will promote based upon what they saw in technique application. is there rule that the grading instructor must be standing within 10 feet of the student? and i beleive that each technique the student sends in to Sullivan must be performed on a partner. have you ever performed a technique on a non-martial artist in practice? they don't quite react the way you'd prefer them to, which in turn, makes it more difficult to execute that technique.

Yes, exactly. When people are promoted with minimal proficiency, what do those outside of the system think about it? They think it sucks. McDojo’s with low standards give Kenpo a bad name.

have you ever graded an IKCA tape? do you personally know the standards upon which they are grading? how can you say this without being there. again, much easier on the outside looking in.

Why not skip the phone call and video tape and go train at a real dojo?

easier said than done. what about the guy living 100 miles from the nearest studio? what are his/her options? a little of an art is better than none. perhaps a student could the littlest of guidance from one of those tapes and practice it repetitively. that little knowledge he does take from that could one day save his life. does this still make the program worthless?

No, it doesn’t make me a better martial artist. But it might help others from going down the wrong path, getting a bogus promotion, and embarrassing hard-working rank-deserving Kenpoists.

why should it embarrass them? are they THAT insecure about their own abilities that they should allow something like this to worry them? worry about yourselves more than others. you'll be a much better martial artist. and there will always be worse/better practitioners than yourselves. you can't change that, ever.

Some TKD and Goju schools do suck. And yes, I’m disrespectful. Respect has to be earned. Rank awards for videotaped demonstrations with minimal proficiency requirements does not deserve my respect.

i didn't know you were the almighty ruler over what deserves what rank. again, you don't grade them. you haven't the slightest idea of what is being graded. below is what a IKCA practioner said in a post in a similar thread here a while back:

It isn't easy. I failed my orange belt test due to not catching nuances on tape. The personal lesson I got after failing made all the difference. I think having a partner who understands what you are doing makes a difference, but if that partner has no clue, then it is like the blind leading the blind. Video courses have their limitations, but so do alot of Dojos. Many of them are crap. It also depends what you want out of your MA experience.

there is alot of truth behind that.

Well, if you visit an IKCA school, or see the results of their training in action, then you would make up your mind and you might no longer be respectful. The thread asked the question about what people think of the IKCA and people who are familiar with what they do are responding. Since you are unfamiliar with what they do, why are you responding?

and the same goes for you as well OFK. i've read alot about what the IKCA is about. i have a pretty good understanding about what it is. and why am i responding? because i can.

 

[Michael Billings]

... and the conflict rages on.

-Michael

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

:deadhorse

We've been down the IKCA/Video instruction road on these fora before. I ain't gonna change your mind; you ain't gonna change mine.

IMO, IKCA kenpo is minimalist, and the ability to control the quality of basics as part of an ongoing, moment-to-moment process, is not present in the model. Sub-par process --> sub-par product. Simple.

Regards,

Dave.

 

[bdparsons]

If anyone read my post... I respectfully request for those who feel that IKCA Kenpo is lacking... please share with me specific examples of where the IKCA curriculum is lacking. We all agree that face-to-face instruction is best, that's not the argument here, what in your opinion is lacking in the curriculum? No general slams and slanders please, give me specifics.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[The Kai]

If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such. What would you have?