IKCA Karate Connection.

[bdparsons]

If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such. What would you have?

Is this your definition of specifics?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Kenpodoc]

My read on the IKCA is that the basics are there and they do a good job of training spontinaeity. If you can find a good instructor to personally review the material with you will become a skilled martial artist. Other systems will provide more or different things but that could be said of every art. The problem remains that in order to become skilled you need good training partners. In order to avoid bad habits you need a skilled instructor who can personally interact with the student.

I believe that the IKCA recognizes this and is attempting to look for ways to increase contact among their members. My personal feeling is that I would look at the instructors available and choose to study whatever art the instructor you most admire teaches. Given infinite resourses I'd travel to study directly with a Mr. Wedlake or Mr. Planas or Mr. Pick or Dr. Chapel or Mr. Vasuliev, etc. I am hwever very proud to study with Mr. Hatfield, He has more to offer than I can ever hope to learn, I get personal attention and he is local.

If I could not find an instructor with whom Icould study personally the IKCA offers an option with at least some contact albeit distant with a skilled instructor.
Jeff

 

[Basicman]

Why is it no one can provide any evidence? That all they can do is say you suck? Or make vague refernces with quotes? Or attack people personally?

For the ones that say I have discussed this before and I am not going to change your mind or you ain't gonna change mine. I have respect for. But just to make vague comments, that is not only being disrespectful, it is also showing ignorance. Give me some facts, so I can see where you are coming from. If not, then all this discussion has degraded into is, I don't like you because you are different....

 

[searcher]

I am very happy for all of the replies and that everyone is expressing their own opinion. I dod not, however, intend for this to turn into an arguement back and for between people. I know this is what often occurs when differing opinions clash, but fighting amongst yourselves will most likely not sway either sides opinion.

To address the comment on whether or not it is a valid way of leraning Kenpo, I will let time tell. I have seen many video from other EPAK instructors and they have helped me in the past when I was regularly training in EPAK. This was and still is the reason for my inquiry about the IKCA. I hope this thread will not turn into a style/group bashing one.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Why is it no one can provide any evidence? That all they can do is say you suck? Or make vague refernces with quotes? Or attack people personally?

For the ones that say I have discussed this before and I am not going to change your mind or you ain't gonna change mine. I have respect for. But just to make vague comments, that is not only being disrespectful, it is also showing ignorance. Give me some facts, so I can see where you are coming from. If not, then all this discussion has degraded into is, I don't like you because you are different....

I don't think that I bashed anyone. As to evidence I'm not sure what you are looking for but I'm sure none exists. I offered opinions because that's all I can respond with.

Jeff

 

[The Kai]

1.) In any given class a dozen corrections or adjustments occur. Not just once every 3 months in the belt "tests". Sdomethings that need to be taught and some are unconcsious mistakes that you pretty much need a 'proofreader" to catch

2.) Focus or Kime

3.) Body Mechanics, body rhyth or timing. The how and why of extended techniques
4.) stance transitions leading to body transitions
5.) Style signitures
6.) Chioce of techniques, having seen the tapes-you got to wonder

There a couple of points
BTW I know Mr tatum has tapes, however they a supplemental to live training not expected to confer rank.

 

[bdparsons]

1.)BTW I know Mr tatum has tapes, however they a supplemental to live training not expected to confer rank.

Actually, Mr. Tatum now offers a Home Study Course based on his technique videos.

http://www.ltatum.com

Check about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such. What would you have?

You would have something very similar to a Manishewitz Passover cake. Which tastes something like a fluffy matzoh.

 

[The Kai]

Ming The Merciless (or is it Ping the Faceless)says:"Close-minded fool; you only foster animosity, not spirited debate" and of course he added "I will destroy your puny planet!!". Actually the underlined part was my imagination

What kinda strikes me is everybody says "Give details". I do you can choose to argue over the concepts I think are important or Keep saying - you suck, no you suck-.

 

[bdparsons]

What kinda strikes me is everybody says "Give details". I do you can choose to argue over the concepts I think are important or Keep saying - you suck, no you suck-.

Never once have I stated "you suck", can't say that I've been extended the same courtesy. The assumption having never met me face-to-face is that I suck at Kenpo because I chose to learn study in an unorthodox (I like neo-orthodox) manner.

Speaking of the advantages of an in person instructor (never disputed) is not discussing concepts, it's discussing logistics.

Any thoughts on Mr. Tatum's HSP?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Basicman]

Mr Tatum's HSP is no different from IKCA. I have looked at both. The only difference is actually in price. Mr Tatum's cost much more. I have material from both organizations. I have to say Mr Tatum's material is much better than IKCAs. The production quality is better. there is greater detail and he really explains the concepts he is trying to get across. I felt the IKCA tapes were dated and really did not contain great detail. Nor was the instruction in the "basics" as good as what was on Mr Tatum's material.

I think where people get hung up about IKCA, is them calling themselves Kenpo. They keep wanting to say it needs to be like or a copy or expecting it to conform to EPAK. I think if it was called Sullivan's Karate, this debate would not happen as much.

I still believe that people put too much stock in a Black Belt. This debate reminds me of, my father get beat up your father.

Kenpodoc, I was not talking about you specifically. I just want to hear examples. Instead of "It sucks." You have tried to provide examples when you could.

Going back to what I said earlier, I am not convinced knowing more techniques makes you a better fighter. I enjoy doing Kenpo, but I don't neccessarily believe that you need to learn every self-defense technique to beat a complete fighter.

 

[bdparsons]

6.) Chioce of techniques, having seen the tapes-you got to wonder.

As to the techniques, realizing of course you're only seeing approx. fifty percent of what is taught, what do feel is lacking?

Respects (really),
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[bdparsons]

Mr Tatum's HSP is no different from IKCA.

Actually there is one major difference. Out of curiosity and for comparison purposes I called and spoke to Mr. Tatum personally about his HSP. The initial process is the same (though I'm not sure of how the video tests are to be done for Mr. Tatum), but when it comes to the evaluation, Mr. Tatum stated that when a tape is sent in that the individual will "... be called and we'll talk about how you did over the phone." I was left with the impression that there would be no video critique and inclusion of additional material as is standard practice when the IKCA receives a video test from anyone, pass or fail.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Sigung86]

With the exception of something that is very detail specific, and here I am thinking specifically of Doc Chapél's system, Sub Level 4, I fail to understand why someone could not learn Tracy's Karate, EPAK, or other branches of Kenpo from Video format. And it so happens that Black Belt magazine tends to agree...

It takes, I suspect, a number of personal attributes to do.

1. Desire to learn and learn correctly.

2. Ability to know left from right

3. Ability to learn motion in mirror orientation ... Something that is not too
terribly difficult if you are of average intelligence, can tie your shoes, and
chew gum.

4. Minimal to average analytical skills

5. A level of physical fitness that allows you to move, move quickly and
move in a fairly accurate fashion.

Kenpo is not rocket science. Most of the advances that are made in it are personal enlightenment. Very little, again, outside of something on the magnitude of order of a Sub Level 4, is actually new and improved. Most of the new stuff coming out and being "introduced" is rearranged material. Kenpo and it's basic evolutionary ideas are thousands of years old ... How can you honestly introduce much new? Why.... You can use new technology and learning theory to introduce old concepts, philosophies and motion to a new generation.

If you give an idiot a few things to do and enough time to do them, he can become very competent, to the point of being an expert or a master, as it were. The method of learning and absorbing anything is based on the desire mixed with ability of the individual and his/her ability to use the tools available to transfer that knowledge. It all, basically, boils down to that.

Having watched the evolution of this Kenpo Culture over the years on this wonderful worldwide web, leads me to believe that often enough, the old school guys like myself, and a few other nameless oldtimers, with some notable exceptions, out here are really not too interested in change.

Philosophically, change is bad for most folks.

If you want to study via video, or are unable to find a school that you want to study with in close proximity, then by all means, go for it. You can always spend a little extra money here and there and go to seminars, tournaments, pizza gatherings, etc.... And find out a little more.

The idea, in my mind, of Kenpo, is that it is a life-long journey. It's your journey (Sounds like a great title for a book )... Get on with it and enjoy YOUR journey. There will always be someone who is better than you at something, and maybe better in everything, but by the same token, there are others who are not as good. Your journey is for you to take and enjoy.
If You are better today than you were yesterday or last week then you've got something there. If you ain't enjoying it, you need to get out of Kenpo and take up something else like underwater basket weaving.

One of the upsides to learning Keno via video technology is the lack of ego.
You are simply learning what the instructor has to offer. Not involved in his/her fan club, not involved in having to make ethical/moral decisions to support him/her and the attendent school. Not having to join Kenpo gangs ... Simply doing the best you can to glean information that is useful to you, which is what you are trying to do via video or attending a school, anyway.

Me? I'm saving my pennies and taking contributions to get my young butt out to California, where I plan to stand on the doorstep of Doc Chapéls school until he accepts me as a student or kicks me back to the airport.

The rest of it is dependent on your taste and desire for fame and fortune. You want Tatum, Trejo, Sullivan, LeRoux, Planas, Chapél .... etc... etc... to sign your certificates? You will find what you are looking for if you dig and study and learn. There are people out there who don't do seminars, don't have websites, don't have a large following, and often simply teach out of their garage, or basement, who have the wisdom of the ages, and you won't hear their names mentioned anywhere. But you gotta dig for it.

Having said that, I sure wouldn't depend on Seig, Alan Wortman, Dan Farmer, or anyone else who isn't a very rich, very wise, and a demonstrable Grandmaster to tell me which way is best for me.

For what it is worth, I have the IKCA tapes, have gone through them, have learned up to Black Belt and not ranked in it. Their material is ok, but you have to understand that some of the techniques are not universally useful. They have good concept, but won't work in all situations. On the other hand, Tracy Karate, and Ed Parker Kenpo, with their maximalist and minimalist approaches of the old material are in the same boat. Each has it's strength and weaknesses.

IKCA does not have much in the way of what I consider to be useful weapon defense, but then again, speaking topically, with very few notable exceptions, the other systems are more or less in the same boat.

If you are a technique horse, you are in trouble in the IKCA as they only have 55 or so techs that everything else is culled from. They only really have two kata or forms. But the upside to that is you can build your own Kenpo system based on what they have. You could make a million technique system if you are into volume. :boing2:

So go do what you wanna do and enjoy your trip... And non-illigitimi carborundum (Never let the bastards wear you down!) :readrules

Sorry to ramble so, but I don't get out of the Missouri State Home for the Mentally Bewildered very often.

Dan Farmer
Ex-RokuDan
Tracy International

 

[Basicman]

Very well put.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

With the exception of something that is very detail specific, and here I am thinking specifically of Doc Chapél's system, Sub Level 4, I fail to understand why someone could not learn Tracy's Karate, EPAK, or other branches of Kenpo from Video format. And it so happens that Black Belt magazine tends to agree...

It takes, I suspect, a number of personal attributes to do.

1. Desire to learn and learn correctly.

2. Ability to know left from right

3. Ability to learn motion in mirror orientation ... Something that is not too
terribly difficult if you are of average intelligence, can tie your shoes, and
chew gum.

4. Minimal to average analytical skills

5. A level of physical fitness that allows you to move, move quickly and
move in a fairly accurate fashion.

Kenpo is not rocket science. Most of the advances that are made in it are personal enlightenment. Very little, again, outside of something on the magnitude of order of a Sub Level 4, is actually new and improved. Most of the new stuff coming out and being "introduced" is rearranged material. Kenpo and it's basic evolutionary ideas are thousands of years old ... How can you honestly introduce much new? Why.... You can use new technology and learning theory to introduce old concepts, philosophies and motion to a new generation.

If you give an idiot a few things to do and enough time to do them, he can become very competent, to the point of being an expert or a master, as it were. The method of learning and absorbing anything is based on the desire mixed with ability of the individual and his/her ability to use the tools available to transfer that knowledge. It all, basically, boils down to that.

Having watched the evolution of this Kenpo Culture over the years on this wonderful worldwide web, leads me to believe that often enough, the old school guys like myself, and a few other nameless oldtimers, with some notable exceptions, out here are really not too interested in change.

Philosophically, change is bad for most folks.

If you want to study via video, or are unable to find a school that you want to study with in close proximity, then by all means, go for it. You can always spend a little extra money here and there and go to seminars, tournaments, pizza gatherings, etc.... And find out a little more.

The idea, in my mind, of Kenpo, is that it is a life-long journey. It's your journey (Sounds like a great title for a book )... Get on with it and enjoy YOUR journey. There will always be someone who is better than you at something, and maybe better in everything, but by the same token, there are others who are not as good. Your journey is for you to take and enjoy.
If You are better today than you were yesterday or last week then you've got something there. If you ain't enjoying it, you need to get out of Kenpo and take up something else like underwater basket weaving.

One of the upsides to learning Keno via video technology is the lack of ego.
You are simply learning what the instructor has to offer. Not involved in his/her fan club, not involved in having to make ethical/moral decisions to support him/her and the attendent school. Not having to join Kenpo gangs ... Simply doing the best you can to glean information that is useful to you, which is what you are trying to do via video or attending a school, anyway.

Me? I'm saving my pennies and taking contributions to get my young butt out to California, where I plan to stand on the doorstep of Doc Chapéls school until he accepts me as a student or kicks me back to the airport.

The rest of it is dependent on your taste and desire for fame and fortune. You want Tatum, Trejo, Sullivan, LeRoux, Planas, Chapél .... etc... etc... to sign your certificates? You will find what you are looking for if you dig and study and learn. There are people out there who don't do seminars, don't have websites, don't have a large following, and often simply teach out of their garage, or basement, who have the wisdom of the ages, and you won't hear their names mentioned anywhere. But you gotta dig for it.

Having said that, I sure wouldn't depend on Seig, Alan Wortman, Dan Farmer, or anyone else who isn't a very rich, very wise, and a demonstrable Grandmaster to tell me which way is best for me.

For what it is worth, I have the IKCA tapes, have gone through them, have learned up to Black Belt and not ranked in it. Their material is ok, but you have to understand that some of the techniques are not universally useful. They have good concept, but won't work in all situations. On the other hand, Tracy Karate, and Ed Parker Kenpo, with their maximalist and minimalist approaches of the old material are in the same boat. Each has it's strength and weaknesses.

IKCA does not have much in the way of what I consider to be useful weapon defense, but then again, speaking topically, with very few notable exceptions, the other systems are more or less in the same boat.

If you are a technique horse, you are in trouble in the IKCA as they only have 55 or so techs that everything else is culled from. They only really have two kata or forms. But the upside to that is you can build your own Kenpo system based on what they have. You could make a million technique system if you are into volume. :boing2:

So go do what you wanna do and enjoy your trip... And non-illigitimi carborundum (Never let the bastards wear you down!) :readrules

Sorry to ramble so, but I don't get out of the Missouri State Home for the Mentally Bewildered very often.

Dan Farmer
Ex-RokuDan
Tracy International

You're joking right? You can certainly learn about an art from a video series. You can certainly learn new material from a video series. But, you can't learn whether or not you are doing it properly from video. And your movements cannot be properly assessed or corrected via video either.

Of course Black Belt Magazine likes video training--what kind of advertising do you think pays their bills? But Black Belt Magazine likes a lot of stuff that is crap and they don't apply much journalistic inquisitiveness to differentiate excellence from mediocrity.

And I am glad that you would not depend on me to tell you which way is best for you. Just take my opinion for what its worth: an opinoated middle age chubby guy with a little extra time on his hands at the office who wants to share what little wisdom he has accumulated with those unfortunate enough to have a little extra time on their hands.

 

[Sigung86]

You're joking right? You can certainly learn about an art from a video series. You can certainly learn new material from a video series. But, you can't learn whether or not you are doing it properly from video. And your movements cannot be properly assessed or corrected via video either.

Of course Black Belt Magazine likes video training--what kind of advertising do you think pays their bills? But Black Belt Magazine likes a lot of stuff that is crap and they don't apply much journalistic inquisitiveness to differentiate excellence from mediocrity.

And I am glad that you would not depend on me to tell you which way is best for you. Just take my opinion for what its worth: an opinoated middle age chubby guy with a little extra time on his hands at the office who wants to share what little wisdom he has accumulated with those unfortunate enough to have a little extra time on their hands.

Well Alan, You kind of set your own limitations. I never said everything is easy. But everything is attainable. Depends on how you see it, work it, and deal with what limits you.

 

[Doc]

Well Alan, You kind of set your own limitations. I never said everything is easy. But everything is attainable. Depends on how you see it, work it, and deal with what limits you.

Parties over guys - somebody woke up Dan. I'm going to work.

 

[Big Pat]

:asian:
As an observation on the responses in this thread. A few of the you need to expand your vocabulary and refrain from the cheap shots and innuendos. It only belittles you. If you have first hand experience with the IKCA material or some of it's practioners simply state in a clear and concise way what was positive or negative. Also, would you be willing to say what you write here to the person you are speaking about face to face (ie. Mr Sullivan or LeRoux)? Searcher asked for opinions about the IKCA and got some good information (good and bad) but also a lot rants and bashing-Welcome to the Kenpo community! I like, enjoy and find the IKCA material very useful. I respect Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux for their effort-Just as I respected Mr. Parker and his Chinese Kenpo.

EKP RIP
Big Pat

 

[The Kai]

As to the techniques, realizing of course you're only seeing approx. fifty percent of what is taught, what do feel is lacking?

Respects (really),
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

I guess I wonder "about the cream of the crop" type of thought. I don't know what 50 percent, I know what on tapes