If your art has tests, are they cumulative or do your students brain dump?

[Dirty Dog]

Which is worse? Someone with sloppy fundamentals who has memorized the pattern, or someone with sound fundamentals who does not remember a specific pattern?

Neither one is acceptable.
And of course, there is a lot more to really understanding forms than merely memorizing them.
It's pretty clear that this is a concept that you've missed. It's something the very young often do not grasp and is one of several reasons why our system does not do baby black belts.

 

[skribs]

Neither one is acceptable.
And of course, there is a lot more to really understanding forms than merely memorizing them.

Exactly. And you don't have to have something memorized to understand it, or to help others understand it. You might need a refresher, but it will work.

I took one of my students the other day, and had them go through some of the stuff from an older belt. They didn't remember the techniques, but when I showed it to them once, real quick (not actual instruction, but just a visual reminder) they quickly were able to perform them. In class, a higher level student is capable of watching a lower level form be performed once by the master or one of the instructors, and then is able to go through the form with the students they're helping.

At our school, just because you're a black belt doesn't make you an instructor. We have a lot of black belts, and only a few instructors who lead classes. But all of our black belts can assist with a class, and all of our black belts can instruct in fundamentals.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Exactly. And you don't have to have something memorized to understand it, or to help others understand it. You might need a refresher, but it will work.

I took one of my students the other day, and had them go through some of the stuff from an older belt. They didn't remember the techniques, but when I showed it to them once, real quick (not actual instruction, but just a visual reminder) they quickly were able to perform them. In class, a higher level student is capable of watching a lower level form be performed once by the master or one of the instructors, and then is able to go through the form with the students they're helping.

At our school, just because you're a black belt doesn't make you an instructor. We have a lot of black belts, and only a few instructors who lead classes. But all of our black belts can assist with a class, and all of our black belts can instruct in fundamentals.

It's pretty clear that what's acceptable in your school is not acceptable in ours. Because I disagree with everything you're saying.

 

[skribs]

It's pretty clear that what's acceptable in your school is not acceptable in ours. Because I disagree with everything you're saying.

Just because your process works, doesn't mean our process doesn't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just because your process works, doesn't mean our process doesn't.

Well, yes it does. Because part of our process is the requirement that you know the material. Not that you can follow along with someone else, but know it. And understand it. Neither of which is a requirement in your system, obviously.
Frankly, what you describe screams McDojo to me.

 

[skribs]

I've been teaching for 3 years there, and I've seen lots of growth in all of our students during that time. All of our students, as they progress through ranks, have shown improvements in their stances, posture, techniques, habits, behavior (at home and at the dojang), respect, ability to learn and retain material, reactions, and martial knowledge.

But, you know, they forgot some things they're not expected to remember, so they must be terrible.

The fundamentals we teach are taught and retained. Any of our students can go to another Taekwondo school and fit right in, because of the fundamentals we teach. We have a girl who got her 3rd Dan at our school, who went off to college, and immediately joined the demonstration team in the Taekwondo club where she's at. She didn't get there by knowing our forms, but by knowing how to learn and do forms.

We have students come from other schools, which teach different forms than us. Do we assume they must be terrible because they don't know our forms and patterns? Do we start them over at white belt because they didn't learn their basics our way? No. We put them into the belt level according to their technique, and teach them the material appropriate to them. Even that is overwhelming at first, as there are lots of things on the curriculum for them to memorize for each test. However, while they might have trouble memorizing our combinations and forms at first, they are able to perform them well, with direction, because their previous school taught them their fundamentals and techniques.

 

[skribs]

The testing requirements we have are appropriate to the level of the individual. For example:

Kicking testing at white belt features basic kicks. Kicking testing at purple belt features some basic footwork (which is more of a training-wheels version of the footwork you will use at the advanced level), and kicking testing at the advanced level features more advanced kicks and combinations. However, the footwork and the basic kicks from the older tests are retained in these combinations.

The basic form features a single stance, and basic footwork and punches/blocks. More advanced forms use the same principles, but with more nuances, and a greater variety of stances, footwork, and techniques. There is nothing that can be practiced in the basic form that cannot be practiced in the more advanced form.

Self defense test at the basic level features a simple block and a single strike to counter-attack, while at the higher level will feature take-downs, joint locks, and/or multiple strikes. Many of these build off of the simple combinations in the basic level.

-----

As I said earlier in the thread, there's a time-and-space constraint involved. We have 10 different classes for age/belt range, and we don't have the room to combine them. What class time we have is devoted to the level of the class (we teach green belt concepts in green belt class). We get to around 60-70% of their testing concepts each class, because of time constraints and in order to provide non-tested drills.

The same time restrictions go for tests. We have around 7 or so different groups of testers every testing week, because we have a lot of students testing. This week was a bit on the smaller side and we had 82 people test. There is no way for us to combine the tests, as we do not have the space available. Currently, our testing week is spread across 4 days, with 1-2 tests per day. If we were going to test everything, then tests would grow from 1.5 hours each and 3.5 hours for black belt test, into 1.5 hours for white-yellow belts, 2.5 hours for purple-orange belts, 4 hours for green belts, 4.5 hours for blue belts, 6 hours for red belts, and 8+ hours for black belts. This means kids would either be missing school, or would be going to bed way past their bed time.

We just had our test week this week. It is clear from those that were testing for 1st and 2nd keub, or even black belt, that they have mastered the fundamentals of the art. It was clear to me without them perform our basic forms, because they performed the advanced forms with such crispness in their technique, it was clear they fully understood the forms.

As a judge for the testing days, it was easy for me to see that the students have learned what is expected at their level, and they have retained what was taught at previous levels, even without me seeing everything they were previously tested on. The concepts they learn at white belt are still there in the red belt forms, even if the forms themselves are gone.

 

[Headhunter]

It's funny really you're asking a question yet getting very defensive when people give you their opinion just because it's not what you want to hear

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My master teaches two arts - Taekwondo and Hapkido. In our Taekwondo class, there are lots of requirements for each belt test, and at several points there exist a "brain dump" where certain techniques are no longer tested. For example, earlier forms, simpler punch and kick combinations, and previous self defense drills that were tested on. These are of course replaced by newer forms, more complicated combinations, and new defense drills that use different situations and usually higher difficulty.

There ends up being more on the Red belt test than the Purple belt test, and while the degree of difficulty and the complexity are higher, the number of tested items remains relatively the same.

On the other hand (pun unintended), the hapkido class is cumulative, in that we are tested on 27 techniques at White belt, learn 7 new ones for yellow belt (total of 34 for that test), 4 new ones (38 total) for our next belt, and by the time you get to black belt, you have over 90 things to remember on the test.

I'm a 2nd degree black belt (getting close to 3rd) in Taekwondo, and an orange belt in Hapkido. It's interesting to see that in Taekwondo, very few people remember ALL of the test requirements. Every black belt can provide advice on individual techniques and assist with class, but very few could lead a class and say "this is your form, this is your combinations," etc. In fact, I think I'm one of the only black belts that does remember ALL of the testing requirements for every test.

Now, if we were to change that, and require everyone to remember everything, then we'd have to truncate our curriculum, or the tests would take several hours to go through everything, so I understand the reason for this. However, in our Hapkido class, anyone can teach the requirements to a lower belt, because we need to know it for our next test. We have 7 keub ranks, and a 1st or 2nd keub will know the 7th and 6th keub requirements very well, because they're still practicing them.

I'd like to hear your thoughts. If you have tests, does your school do a brain dump, or do you have cumulative requirements? How well do you feel it would work if you switched? If you don't have tests, which style would you prefer if your school introduced a testing system?

For the most part, our tests are cumulative. There are elements that are only tested once or twice along the way, but those are mostly things we expect to get use from that point forward in sparring and other areas. In that case, the test is to make sure they have them at a reasonable level to start using them. They may not test some of them again until brown or black belt (where we check to make sure they didn't ignore them along the way, so will be able to transmit them to others).

 

[Headhunter]

The testing requirements we have are appropriate to the level of the individual. For example:

Kicking testing at white belt features basic kicks. Kicking testing at purple belt features some basic footwork (which is more of a training-wheels version of the footwork you will use at the advanced level), and kicking testing at the advanced level features more advanced kicks and combinations. However, the footwork and the basic kicks from the older tests are retained in these combinations.

The basic form features a single stance, and basic footwork and punches/blocks. More advanced forms use the same principles, but with more nuances, and a greater variety of stances, footwork, and techniques. There is nothing that can be practiced in the basic form that cannot be practiced in the more advanced form.

Self defense test at the basic level features a simple block and a single strike to counter-attack, while at the higher level will feature take-downs, joint locks, and/or multiple strikes. Many of these build off of the simple combinations in the basic level.

-----

As I said earlier in the thread, there's a time-and-space constraint involved. We have 10 different classes for age/belt range, and we don't have the room to combine them. What class time we have is devoted to the level of the class (we teach green belt concepts in green belt class). We get to around 60-70% of their testing concepts each class, because of time constraints and in order to provide non-tested drills.

The same time restrictions go for tests. We have around 7 or so different groups of testers every testing week, because we have a lot of students testing. This week was a bit on the smaller side and we had 82 people test. There is no way for us to combine the tests, as we do not have the space available. Currently, our testing week is spread across 4 days, with 1-2 tests per day. If we were going to test everything, then tests would grow from 1.5 hours each and 3.5 hours for black belt test, into 1.5 hours for white-yellow belts, 2.5 hours for purple-orange belts, 4 hours for green belts, 4.5 hours for blue belts, 6 hours for red belts, and 8+ hours for black belts. This means kids would either be missing school, or would be going to bed way past their bed time.

Well kids shouldn't be getting black belts anyway

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm curious how big your schools are.

The Taekwondo school I went to as a kid, we basically had 1 class at each location, so a class would include all age groups and we would have all belts practicing together. We had maybe 20-30 students at each location, so maybe 50 students total.

The school I'm at now has probably 150-200 active students, and we have classes specific for each belt color for the kids and then classes broken up into beginners (12th - 9th keub) and Advanced (8th - 1st Keub) for the adults, and then separate classes for kids and adult black belts. We still have 10-30 students in each class.

So I'm not trying to say, "my school is bigger, so our method is better". I'm just putting into context that when we're teaching the green belts, there are no white belts for us to go through the white belt part of the curriculum with. So unless we specifically practiced the white belt patterns* in the green belt class, they are generally only going to practice the green belt stuff.

In a smaller school, where everyone practices together (like my old school), then it makes sense that you'd be practicing the entire curriculum, because you'd be training with the lower belts in class.

*I say "white belt patterns" to differentiate from the white belt foundations. We still practice the basic punches and such. However, we are not going to have our green belts spend class time on a form that only includes down blocks and punches (the first basic form), when their form has everything that basic form has and more.

The schools I trained in the longest had 75-125 students spread through many classes, so usually 10-20 people per class. Most classes were entirely open. There were advanced classes, and even black belt classes at times - even those might focus on white belt material art any point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I held tests, everybody in the dojo, including white belts of just a month, and black belts of years, were allowed to participate in that particular test/workout.
I did so as a courtesy to the students. Most were taking part as "practice", so they knew what to expect in a test. The tests were held during regular class hours and I wasn't about to cancel a workout for a test. The test nights were wildly considered the best workouts of the year. And if you didn't take part, you were strongly encouraged to come watch. Bring your family if you want, and your friends, and all tests were open to the public.

Results of the test were posted on the board the next night.

Anything might be covered. There was no dumping of anything. If you knew it and could do it a year ago, you better know it now. [I really don't see how anyone couldn't]

Sometimes testing did take several hours. But since all belts were testing together, every hour or so certain lower belts were done and would be bowed out. They would usually sit down and watch the rest.

On a personal note, my favorite thing about testing students was watching how much they supported each other during testing. Tests were high energy, high intensity, a whole lot of fun, and had the most people of any classes during the year. And they were LOUD.
People testing would pick each other up, high five each other, encourage each other, help each other, yell for each other. It was awesome.

I've never figured out how to do group tests for my curriculum. Mind you, I'd need a group larger than 2 ready to test at the same time in order for that to even be a consideration.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the surface, nothing. But time devoted to that material takes away from time we can devote to green belt material, and we can't even cover all the green belt material every class.

I don't think I see the importance of covering everything in a single class. Each "classical set" in NGA is only 10 techniques. Moving at a moderate pace, I could get through all 10 in a single class, but there would be no real time for repetition and learning. If I had a class of orange belts (I think this is roughly similar to your green), they might spend 30 minutes working on a single technique, and it could be going back to the first technique they received.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, but that is an imperfect analogy.
Do you have a white belt kata that is different from a green belt kata? If so, what do they contain? Why would you stop practicing the one after you learn the other?

Maybe the structure of the system and it’s curriculum in which I train is fundamentally different from yours, I dunno.

I agree with both Skribs' point and your points (including your point that his point isn't about your point).

The math analogy is like what you and others were saying about things like more complex kicks replacing the starter versions.

Kata (and anything similar) is a different beast. They need repetition for memory, and deeper diving if there's bunkai (or equivalent). Even if everything in the earlier forms is replaced with something in later forms, knowing the actual form (and being able to do it well) is important for being able to help other students, and eventually for teaching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do you improve upon the white belt kata if you don't continue to practice it? Or are you suggesting that once you pass white belt it's suggesting you already have mastery/an advanced understanding of that kata?

It sounds like their kata progress. So, the white belt kata is just for introducing the material, and is replaced by the next kata, which has the same pattern, but more complexity. If that's the case, perhaps it's easy enough to strip away the complexity and go back to the white belt version for teaching purposes. It would be one way to use kata that fit experience level, without having a build-up of kata that require a cumulative amount of focus and time away from live practice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could have one person running it, and have, say, 1 assistant overseeing each group of 5-10 students that are testing.

I’ve seen a head person run a test for 50 students. He had senior black belts circulating through the group while he was in front telling the students what to do and circulating himself. During sparring, he climbed on a ladder for a bird’s eye view of the entire floor. If a senior black felt someone wasn’t up to standards and the one running the test didn’t notice, he’d discreetly get the head guy’s attention to take a closer look.

It can definitely work. The person running the test has to be pretty competent though. He/she probably has to be looking for red flags more than anything else IMO.

I agree that could work, especially if he can trust the other BBs' ability to test. By doing it all together, there's more consistency than if each BB tested a few people separately, and it gives the head guy better feedback on what to teach differently or focus on in the classes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People do make it work to their satisfaction. I personally don’t trust the quality in that kind of situation.

If the alternative is to have those same senior BB testing most of the students, then the quality shouldn't suffer by simply adding the crowd and a more senior BB to oversee. It could suffer, if the senior BB don't speak up because they are depending upon the head guy to catch everything, but if they do what they'd do if they were testing that small group, then his oversight is simply an added layer of control.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Drills and combinations that are made up on-the-spot by a creative instructor.

If they are made up on-the-spot, they aren't really part of the curriculum. If they are going to reoccur, then remembering them becomes useful, but only if they are going to reoccur.

EXCEPT...if you want to use them later as an instructor or student assistant. Then you need to remember even those ad hoc drills. Same with kata that aren't actively used.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you'd read my post that already responded to the thread: they still understand and practice the stances, footwork, and techniques. They just don't have all of the patterns memorized.

Which is worse? Someone with sloppy fundamentals who has memorized the pattern, or someone with sound fundamentals who does not remember a specific pattern?

The Forms we use build on each other. A higher level form includes the same fundamentals as lower level forms. When a form is replaced, the fundamentals it contains are not gone. The lessons, techniques, footwork, muscle memory, etc. are still practiced, just in different ways.

Your responses are becoming defensive and introducing logical fallacies (strawmen, reductio ad absurdum, whataboutism). Your points are valid on their own, so neither is necessary, and resorting to these makes it less likely you'll get a rational reply.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, yes it does. Because part of our process is the requirement that you know the material. Not that you can follow along with someone else, but know it. And understand it. Neither of which is a requirement in your system, obviously.
Frankly, what you describe screams McDojo to me.

While I agree with your premise, DD, I don't think immediate recall of a kata is necessary to understanding. For instance, there are versions of the classical forms of NGA that I don't practice (I introduced alternative forms in some cases). When I visit another school, I often ask a senior student or the instructor to quickly show me those, so I can recall the sequence in them, if we are going to be practicing them in class. Once I'm reminded by that quick run-through, I can provide good feedback to students (sometimes the class instructor will ask me to give students feedback, as a guest instructor to the class). I know those forms inside and out, but can't always call them up exactly from my memory without a visual cue first.