I was asked to set up a basic...

[drop bear]

Nvm. I am reminded of what a Captain once told me once... "juany, never start yelling at someone who is just looking for an argument. If someone walks into the room after, they can't tell who the ignorant one is."

If you had any idea what you were on about. You would probably get less argument though.

 

[hoshin1600]

You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time.

this is a complete fallacy. not sure how you do a hammer fist but its just not true. and at best it would be something like 10 strikes per 10 seconds VS 10.02 strikes. totally irrelevant and a non issue.

If they are mid tackle. Hammer fists are not an optimal defence. So that doesn't apply.

i didnt say they were "being tackled" i said that position, i will take a page from your play book and post pictures.

hammer strikes seem to be very popular in this position.

If you have an actual hammer. Then yes hammer fists would be the best choice.

maybe we should issue actual hammers in MMA fights then. because they use it all the time.

Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition. If you are in a chair. Stand up.

you know Juany was being very kind in not actually responding.
this comment is just ....well .....your mouth is so big and your foot was right there.......
i got to break it into two segments.

Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition.

again one dimensional. the context is a self defense class, not a competition. its not the chair, you missed the point its the position....sitting.
New Survey: To Sit or Stand? Almost 70% of Full Time American Workers Hate Sitting, but They do it all Day Every Day

so since we sit 70% of the time the chances of you needing to fight back from the position is pretty good. besides the Gracies taught us 90% of all fights go to the ground,,, so i would think there must be a position in between laying down and standing...oh yes i remember SITTING UP.
we sit in a chair, the bed, the couch, the floor. in your car. all seem like good places for women to learn how to defend themselves.

If you are in a chair. Stand up.

we sit in more places then just a straight back chair. as i pointed out. if your answer is to just stand up.....WOW!! why didnt we think of that before.. i think maybe you should go back to your gym and tell all those BJJ guys they are wasting their money!! JUST STAND UP!


Just stand up

just stand up

Just stand up!!!

i mean really, you could have thought that reply out a little better. things are not that easy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah compromising yourself into pointlessness.

Less techniques, more efficient use of training time. Concept rather than technique driven training. And focus on solid fight winning basics. Knockout slaps are not fight winning basics. Fighting for knockouts, catastrophic damage or fight ending scenarios are over ambitious. Cut them up break their momentum and create a bit of space would be about the end goal here.

Remember we throw the same people you are talking about in the ring in three months.

The methods don't really change. Some of the tactical aspects will though.

So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time. And you are less likely to be exposed doing it. This circumstance still applies in a self defence situation as in any other situation round striking and straight striking occurs.

So no not just in competition. That statement is wrong.

Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition. If you are in a chair. Stand up.

If they are mid tackle. Hammer fists are not an optimal defence. So that doesn't apply.

If you have an actual hammer. Then yes hammer fists would be the best choice.

Hammer fists are a good strike. But all hammer fist start getting a bit silly.

If you thought that video was represents good striking. You may need to rethink your system there.

You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.

 

[Juany118]

You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.

This is my hope. That he, some how, missed that this wasn't about "make a list of the best methods" but rather "let's make a curriculum that neophytes can absorb the basics of in 10-16 hours." Given his past history, he sticks to HIS original premise, even if he is talking past everyone else because no one else is sharing that premise.

The only other option is that he is intentionally being obtuse moving goal posts, raising non sequiturs and engaging in strawman arguments just to cause drama.

At this point it almost has to be one of these two because fine, he wants to say that other "mere" forum goers don't know what we are talking about but to actively ignore/dismiss near universally recognized experts like Bas Rutten and his crew, among others? You either have to be stubborn to the point of it being pathological or intentionally just stirring the pot.

 

[TMA17]

Sounds good Juany. Good luck I think what you're doing is great.

Here is a scenario where a guy grabs your shirt that I thought was good using WC principles.

 

[jks9199]

So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.

Actually, yes, I can. But that's about all they'll learn in that session. And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it. But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure. I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way... Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Juany118]

Actually, yes, I can. But that's about all they'll learn in that session. And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it. But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure. I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way... Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I believe Gerry was saying "can you teach the punch, train what can and cannot be safely punched, with an unconditioned fist and when to use the palm and hammerfist instead AND everything else in the context of a self defense classes of a short duration."

When you look at the non-technique stuff, then the basic breaks from holds and grabs use of elbows and knees, what can you do if you end up on the ground, and hands, something has to give doesn't it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, yes, I can. But that's about all they'll learn in that session. And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it. But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure. I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way... Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

My issue has been the timidity. I’ve had students (and seminar attendees) whose initial strikes were barely enough to make me blink if they hit my face (and I’m not that tough). Universally, these folks had nothing approaching a useful fist for punching (usually a wrist position issue), and it would take me an hour to get to a fist and the ability to hurt a nose that didn’t move. I could get to the latter faster if I didn’t try to fix the fist and worked with hammerfist and slap.

Obviously, that’s the extreme, but I’ve run into a fair number who were closer to that end of the continuum.

If you can get that fist fixed to safe use faster, I’m interested in learning the principle you’re using.

 

[Juany118]

My issue has been the timidity. I’ve had students (and seminar attendees) whose initial strikes were barely enough to make me blink if they hit my face (and I’m not that tough). Universally, these folks had nothing approaching a useful fist for punching (usually a wrist position issue), and it would take me an hour to get to a fist and the ability to hurt a nose that didn’t move. I could get to the latter faster if I didn’t try to fix the fist and worked with hammerfist and slap.

Obviously, that’s the extreme, but I’ve run into a fair number who were closer to that end of the continuum.

If you can get that fist fixed to safe use faster, I’m interested in learning the principle you’re using.

I agree with the timidity issue and to me that is part of the training issue. There are a lot of people who are afraid of hurting themselves when punching, but getting them to palm, hammerfist or slap (slaps on ears HURT) with force behind it takes very little effort and that means there is more time for other things. I would suspect that it is an equally difficult task to get a student comfortable enough with ways to free oneself from being grabbed, so they won't panic, and since there are effective strikes that aren't punches, time would be better spent there. It's just, to my mind, a matter of cost/benefit analysis.

As you said though, if a punch could be taught effectively, in this context, I would be interested to know, but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here. From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots and typically smaller females will find body shots less effective so strikes to the head/neck are focused on to get the element of "shock" that is useful to aid in escape.

 

[hoshin1600]

, I can teach them to throw an effective and powerful punch under pressure.

The bigger issue is the ability to remember and utilize that tool months or years down the road with zero training in between.
During an assault that response will not be available in the brain
Which is why a the fixed action pattern is better. It is never forgotten and takes substantially less practice time to improve and those improvements will stick.

 

[drop bear]

You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.

Well no, what I am doing here is the opposite.

Palm heel strikes work but you have to be able to hit hard or they basically do bubkus. This is why Baz Rutten can justify using them. Apart from the pain of getting slapped it relies on hitting hard enough to move the head.

There are positional advantages and all sorts of cool things you can do with them.

But you don't have enough time to create the sort of basic skill set that palm heels will be an advantage.

You are just not going to create the sort of juice needed to make it work. It is nothing like it is being presented to you by the Krav set..I have done them. straight ones, round ones everything. You get a bit of head movement and that is about it. Good for me because I dont want to carve guys faces up and possibly want to throw an intimidation shot out to back a guy off and let him know I am serious.
.

But this set up is not for me.

Hammer fists. Great move in all sorts of positional situations. I use them to for set ups and opening up grappling options. But you cant do them well if you are standing in front of someone. You are put at a positional disadvantage if they are throwing straight shots down the pipe. And I am throwing round shots. Unless I have the better footwork.

Are you going to have time to do combative footwork like angling off and striking? and If you are in a position to do hammerfists you pretty much dont have to train it.. Its there.

Your best option if you have a limited time to give a person skills is to give them the ability to throw as many effective strikes as they can in as short amount of time as they can. And that is straight shots down the pipe.

And unfortunately that will require a bit of training to get a persons head around. Because everybody instinctively wants to throw tennis balls.

It is not any sort of set up for decent fighters. It is about best bang for buck under a very short amount of time.

This is the calculator version of self defence.

 

[drop bear]

but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here. From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots

Untill you hit the top of your thumb on their elbow. And then you can break your hand.

And that is a bit common.

I am not sure where people are playing out this hand breaking issue because all the alternatives come with the risk of breaking hands.

 

[drop bear]

So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.

There is a percentage of people the training will work for. Plain and simple. There comes a point where a person will make so many consessions that fighting itself pretty much goes off the table.

These systems that are designed for 90 year olds to handle any attacker are basically lies. And you cant just make the training work for people if it doesn't work. That is dihonest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well no, what I am doing here is the opposite.

Palm heel strikes work but you have to be able to hit hard or they basically do bubkus. This is why Baz Rutten can justify using them. Apart from the pain of getting slapped it relies on hitting hard enough to move the head.

There are positional advantages and all sorts of cool things you can do with them.

But you don't have enough time to create the sort of basic skill set that palm heels will be an advantage.

You are just not going to create the sort of juice needed to make it work. It is nothing like it is being presented to you by the Krav set..I have done them. straight ones, round ones everything. You get a bit of head movement and that is about it. Good for me because I dont want to carve guys faces up and possibly want to throw an intimidation shot out to back a guy off and let him know I am serious.
.

But this set up is not for me.

Hammer fists. Great move in all sorts of positional situations. I use them to for set ups and opening up grappling options. But you cant do them well if you are standing in front of someone. You are put at a positional disadvantage if they are throwing straight shots down the pipe. And I am throwing round shots. Unless I have the better footwork.

Are you going to have time to do combative footwork like angling off and striking? and If you are in a position to do hammerfists you pretty much dont have to train it.. Its there.

Your best option if you have a limited time to give a person skills is to give them the ability to throw as many effective strikes as they can in as short amount of time as they can. And that is straight shots down the pipe.

And unfortunately that will require a bit of training to get a persons head around. Because everybody instinctively wants to throw tennis balls.

It is not any sort of set up for decent fighters. It is about best bang for buck under a very short amount of time.

This is the calculator version of self defence.

You make the argument against the punch nicely about 2/3 down. The rest seems to be more absolutism (either knock-out or nothing).

There are good arguments for a punch. You even make some. But the ones you make don’t apply under the limitations of the situation. And I’m not aware of any that do.

Unless you have some evidence or experience that suggests otherwise. I suspect if you did, you’d have supplied it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a percentage of people the training will work for. Plain and simple. There comes a point where a person will make so many consessions that fighting itself pretty much goes off the table.

These systems that are designed for 90 year olds to handle any attacker are basically lies. And you cant just make the training work for people if it doesn't work. That is dihonest.

Short seminars like this are about improving the odds a bit. Not about building fighters.

Edit: fixed a typo.

 

[drop bear]

Short seminars like this are about improving the odds a bit. Not about building fighters.

Edit: fixed a typo.

There are going to be elements that improve the odds a bit quicker and a bit more efficiently in that short amount of time than others.

So if I could teach someone ten effective techniques or build a fighter even with bad technique. I think the fighter would have better odds.

I would suggest exposure to fighting would give people more of a chance.

 

[drop bear]

You make the argument against the punch nicely about 2/3 down. The rest seems to be more absolutism (either knock-out or nothing).

There are good arguments for a punch. You even make some. But the ones you make don’t apply under the limitations of the situation. And I’m not aware of any that do.

Unless you have some evidence or experience that suggests otherwise. I suspect if you did, you’d have supplied it.

The alternatives don't really fix the problem. You can break a hand throwing open hand strikes. The downside is open hand strikes just don't have the same damaging effect. And they don't have the same psychological effect.

Knuckles cut and knuckles find eyeballs. And you get a few extra inches of range. And people know punching works. You have to convince people that open hand strikes work. Which you are then trying to sell to someone who isn't going to hit very hard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are going to be elements that improve the odds a bit quicker and a bit more efficiently in that short amount of time than others.

So if I could teach someone ten effective techniques or build a fighter even with bad technique. I think the fighter would have better odds.

I would suggest exposure to fighting would give people more of a chance.

That last point is a good one. I haven’t figured out yet how to get much of that effectively and safely incorporated.

The whole “what kind of strike” to me comes down to what you can get them to use with any effectiveness at all. I go with what my experience has taught me the audience can learn to most effectiveness in that time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The alternatives don't really fix the problem. You can break a hand throwing open hand strikes. The downside is open hand strikes just don't have the same damaging effect. And they don't have the same psychological effect.

Knuckles cut and knuckles find eyeballs. And you get a few extra inches of range. And people know punching works. You have to convince people that open hand strikes work. Which you are then trying to sell to someone who isn't going to hit very hard.

You and I clearly have had different experiences with new people. I suspect the difference is the population making up those new students.