I was asked to set up a basic...

[drop bear]

Since you like videos so much though here is a video where some MMA people with far more knowledge than us prove my point.

Bas saying a trained fighter against ONE opponent should punch for body shots but decribes how he gets knock outs and why punches to the head are dangerous...

And this is his partner speaking to why you need to condition your hands...

There are many others btw. If you want to say Bas is clueless, good luck with that.

So MMA guys also talking about the danger of punches to the heah, and if you are going to do it condition. Something a short self defense course doesn't allow for.

Baz Rutten is one of the hardest strikers in MMA.

The people in your course won't be.

 

[drop bear]

Hey look revisionist history. I said untrained punching risks injury to hands. When people have injured their hands they lose.

You then show a video claiming it proves that punches are dangerous BUT 99% of the strikes aren't punches. So the fantasy is yours.

You said.

JUANY118 SAID: ↑
Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.

Now you claim 99% of that video people didn't throw punches. Which is of course also not true.

And at no point have you shown a hurt hand having any effect on a fight.

Or how you prevent a hurt hand from a palm strike that goes wrong.

 

[Juany118]

Baz Rutten is one of the hardest strikers in MMA.

The people in your course won't be.

That doesn't change physics or biomechanics. You didn't see how he mentioned breaking hands on heads? That's why he said you don't punch bare handed to a head. The, as you say, "hardest striker", in a generic self defense video (like I will be teaching) saying "punch to the body, palm or forearm to head, so you don't break your hand."

It appears you didnt watch it.

 

[drop bear]

I’m not even sure what you’re on about now.

You can't short cut fighting mechanics. All you can do is provide poor quality training.

 

[Juany118]

You said.

JUANY118 SAID: ↑
Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.

Now you claim 99% of that video people didn't throw punches. Which is of course also not true.

And at no point have you shown a hurt hand having any effect on a fight.

Or how you prevent a hurt hand from a palm strike that goes wrong.

You didn't show a fight in a video where people struck in a manner where their fist could be hurt, as Bas says, will happens when you punch a head.

Keep trying. Really right now you are just being stubbornly obtuse and ignoring the evidence that contradicts your myopic view. Cheers

 

[drop bear]

That doesn't change physics or biomechanics. You didn't see how he mentioned breaking hands on heads? That's why he said you don't punch bare handed to a head. The, as you say, "hardest striker", in a generic self defense video (like I will be teaching) saying "punch to the body, palm or forearm to head, so you don't break your hand."

It appears you didnt watch it.

I know plenty of people who have broken their hands punching to the body. You method is designed for a static target.

Palm heel goes out. Head goes forwards you catch the top of your hand rather than the heel of your palm and you can break your wrist.

If you don't want to break your hands put them in your pockets or something.

 

[drop bear]

You didn't show a fight in a video where people struck in a manner where their fist could be hurt, as Bas says, will happens when you punch a head.

Keep trying. Really right now you are just being stubbornly obtuse and ignoring the evidence that contradicts your myopic view. Cheers

They were punches. We have done this before. I show you a video you make stuff up.

 

[drop bear]

Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.

Why would you train someone to do a really bad weak punch?

 

[Juany118]

They were punches. We have done this before. I show you a video you make stuff up.

Welll Clearly from this respinse and your last response to Gerry you are just trolling now. Thanks/no thanks for derailing my thread by trolling.

 

[hoshin1600]

Now you claim 99% of that video people didn't throw punches. Which is of course also not true

BTW that was me that said 90% of the clip wasn't punches not Juany.
Watch it again in slow motion if you like and you will notice that the mechanics of what is being thrown is different from a boxers punch. What you call sloppy punches is actually the base line normal human fixed behavioral patteren, meaning Instinctual. It's a hammer fist strike, same mechanics as the apes use, same mechanics as using tools and weapons. It's an action we are born with.......that's why it's a better option to be taught to short term beginners. You can't screw it up. While on the contrary a boxers punch is learned behavior pattern and unless you spend a decent amount of time perfecting it ,,you will screw it up , do it poorly and perhaps mess your hand and wrist up. On top of that the chances of the students hurting their wrists during the actual class is increased due to the limited time frame. ,that is certainly not going to help.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Welll Clearly from this respinse and your last response to Gerry you are just trolling now. Thanks/no thanks for derailing my thread by trolling.

He views conversations as arguments to be won. So if he starts losing he gets desperate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can't short cut fighting mechanics. All you can do is provide poor quality training.

What we can do is provide the best training the time allows. There’s no question short timing limits the value of what can be provided.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why would you train someone to do a really bad weak punch?

That’s what you’re doing if you try to fix a punch without enough time to do so.

 

[drop bear]

BTW that was me that said 90% of the clip wasn't punches not Juany.
Watch it again in slow motion if you like and you will notice that the mechanics of what is being thrown is different from a boxers punch. What you call sloppy punches is actually the base line normal human fixed behavioral patteren, meaning Instinctual. It's a hammer fist strike, same mechanics as the apes use, same mechanics as using tools and weapons. It's an action we are born with.......that's why it's a better option to be taught to short term beginners. You can't screw it up. While on the contrary a boxers punch is learned behavior pattern and unless you spend a decent amount of time perfecting it ,,you will screw it up , do it poorly and perhaps mess your hand and wrist up. On top of that the chances of the students hurting their wrists during the actual class is increased due to the limited time frame. ,that is certainly not going to help.

So because untrained people do something badly. You should train them to do something badly because it is more natural?

Ever thrown palm heels on pads? You can hurt your wrist there as well if the pad holder isn't up to speed.

Hit the bottom of a hand mitt when they angle it forwards and see what happens.

Hammer fists come with a different set of issues in that they take a bit to set up or they don't compete as well against straight striking.

 

[drop bear]

That’s what you’re doing if you try to fix a punch without enough time to do so.

Yeah compromising yourself into pointlessness.

Less techniques, more efficient use of training time. Concept rather than technique driven training. And focus on solid fight winning basics. Knockout slaps are not fight winning basics. Fighting for knockouts, catastrophic damage or fight ending scenarios are over ambitious. Cut them up break their momentum and create a bit of space would be about the end goal here.

Remember we throw the same people you are talking about in the ring in three months.

The methods don't really change. Some of the tactical aspects will though.

 

[Juany118]

I really think this sums you up.

You don't have the applicable basis to design or even consider the tests. Never mind actually make them.

I've been trying to be nice about it but frankly, to be blunt, you are a poser.

You have demonstrated zero experience in training for weapons retention (other thread). No experience in training others in short duration self defense classes BUT you know everything. Even when recognized experts like Bas contradict you in their videos you won't admit you were wrong, you need to move goal posts, engage in ad hominems, complete non sequiturs etc.

These are the tactics of someone posing who gets caught out.

 

[hoshin1600]

So because untrained people do something badly. You should train them to do something badly because it is more natural?

Ever thrown palm heels on pads? You can hurt your wrist there as well if the pad holder isn't up to speed.

Hit the bottom of a hand mitt when they angle it forwards and see what happens.

Hammer fists come with a different set of issues in that they take a bit to set up or they don't compete as well against straight striking.

you are very confused in your view. there is no logic in your statements at all. it is barely worth my time to respond because your view is so one dimensional. your contention is that a hammer fist doesnt compete as well as a straight punch. yes in competition that would be a correct view but we are not talking about an MMA competition we are talking about a self defense situation.
lets start with the fact that species are born with certain instinctual behaviors. scientifically this is called a "Fixed Action Pattern" (FAP) . these are actions that are triggered by certain stimuli called a "releaser" in the brain. a FAP is also defined by the fact that they improve with repeated use. so a baby is born with a FAP to suckle. in test studies you can put a squirrel in a cage with no contact with other squirrel's and given a pure liquid diet from birth and if you give that squirrel a nut he will know what to do with it. in the same way a hammer fist strike is a FAP. the genus homo species and other apes have been doing this action for millions of years. it works quite well. biomechanically it is the most powerfull striking action someone can do that is a FAP. a straight punch is a learnt behavior and takes a lot of skill to generate power. where the hammer fist incorporates the core contractions and arm muscle contractions that pull toward the body which are very strong a straight punch requires mass and rotation to achieve the same outcome. if we look at the structure of the body the bicep is stronger than the tricep. the pulling action has direct force incorporated by the stomach muscles and the latissimus dorsi.
so what does that mean? it means that an untrained person can generate more force with a hammer fist because it uses larger muscle groups while a straight punch needs more coordination to move the body as a unit, a skill they have not yet acquired and would need more time to develop. A FAP also can get better with use but at a much faster rate then a learnt behavior.
your comment again about what works in an MMA event is irrelevant. a straight punch holds the advantage not because of some ill perceived "set up" time lag in a hammer strike but because of the human eyes and the ability to perceive the strike. a linear strike is not as well picked up by the eye thus has a better success rate in competition. however you an take any boxer MMA guy or anyone you choose and when a life threatening event happens .....lets say a tiger grabs a hold of your leg and you need to strike it to let go, your brain will be more inclined to revert back to the hammer strike. your comment is also predicated on a standing position. you should know that when you are on your back that straight punch fails and a hammer strike still maintains some viability. the hammer strike is functionable from many positions and angles where a straight punch does not.
lets do a test , sit on an straight back chair and throw some straight punches on a hand pad, now have the pad held in the horizontal position and use the hammer fist. what strike has more power? in most self defense situations the victim is not defending themselves in the standing up right position squared off with their assailant.
with the gross motor movements of the hammer fist there is also crossover applicabilty. if someone has you around waist from the front (like a tackle) the most available strike is the downward elbow and guess what this is the same gross motor acting but on a shorter stroke. place a rock in the hand same motor action, a stick, a purse, a book, a laptop computer and you will be striking with the same gross motor action as a hammer fist strike. why do you think we call it a hammer strike, because it is the same action as using the tool...a hammer. its a very efficient action as far as expenditure of energy for the return.

now you said something about doing it badly????? who is doing what badly? because humans do that action quite well with no training at all.

 

[hoshin1600]

At the end of the day its Juany that is teaching the class!!! so every one else can clam up and teach your own classes anyway you think is right and he will do what he thinks is right.

 

[drop bear]

you are very confused in your view. there is no logic in your statements at all. it is barely worth my time to respond because your view is so one dimensional. your contention is that a hammer fist doesnt compete as well as a straight punch. yes in competition that would be a correct view but we are not talking about an MMA competition we are talking about a self defense situation.
lets start with the fact that species are born with certain instinctual behaviors. scientifically this is called a "Fixed Action Pattern" (FAP) . these are actions that are triggered by certain stimuli called a "releaser" in the brain. a FAP is also defined by the fact that they improve with repeated use. so a baby is born with a FAP to suckle. in test studies you can put a squirrel in a cage with no contact with other squirrel's and given a pure liquid diet from birth and if you give that squirrel a nut he will know what to do with it. in the same way a hammer fist strike is a FAP. the genus homo species and other apes have been doing this action for millions of years. it works quite well. biomechanically it is the most powerfull striking action someone can do that is a FAP. a straight punch is a learnt behavior and takes a lot of skill to generate power. where the hammer fist incorporates the core contractions and arm muscle contractions that pull toward the body which are very strong a straight punch requires mass and rotation to achieve the same outcome. if we look at the structure of the body the bicep is stronger than the tricep. the pulling action has direct force incorporated by the stomach muscles and the latissimus dorsi.
so what does that mean? it means that an untrained person can generate more force with a hammer fist because it uses larger muscle groups while a straight punch needs more coordination to move the body as a unit, a skill they have not yet acquired and would need more time to develop. A FAP also can get better with use but at a much faster rate then a learnt behavior.
your comment again about what works in an MMA event is irrelevant. a straight punch holds the advantage not because of some ill perceived "set up" time lag in a hammer strike but because of the human eyes and the ability to perceive the strike. a linear strike is not as well picked up by the eye thus has a better success rate in competition. however you an take any boxer MMA guy or anyone you choose and when a life threatening event happens .....lets say a tiger grabs a hold of your leg and you need to strike it to let go, your brain will be more inclined to revert back to the hammer strike. your comment is also predicated on a standing position. you should know that when you are on your back that straight punch fails and a hammer strike still maintains some viability. the hammer strike is functionable from many positions and angles where a straight punch does not.
lets do a test , sit on an straight back chair and throw some straight punches on a hand pad, now have the pad held in the horizontal position and use the hammer fist. what strike has more power? in most self defense situations the victim is not defending themselves in the standing up right position squared off with their assailant.
with the gross motor movements of the hammer fist there is also crossover applicabilty. if someone has you around waist from the front (like a tackle) the most available strike is the downward elbow and guess what this is the same gross motor acting but on a shorter stroke. place a rock in the hand same motor action, a stick, a purse, a book, a laptop computer and you will be striking with the same gross motor action as a hammer fist strike. why do you think we call it a hammer strike, because it is the same action as using the tool...a hammer. its a very efficient action as far as expenditure of energy for the return.

now you said something about doing it badly????? who is doing what badly? because humans do that action quite well with no training at all.

You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time. And you are less likely to be exposed doing it. This circumstance still applies in a self defence situation as in any other situation round striking and straight striking occurs.

So no not just in competition. That statement is wrong.

Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition. If you are in a chair. Stand up.

If they are mid tackle. Hammer fists are not an optimal defence. So that doesn't apply.

If you have an actual hammer. Then yes hammer fists would be the best choice.

Hammer fists are a good strike. But all hammer fist start getting a bit silly.

If you thought that video was represents good striking. You may need to rethink your system there.

 

[Juany118]

Nvm. I am reminded of what a Captain once told me once... "juany, never start yelling at someone who is just looking for an argument. If someone walks into the room after, they can't tell who the ignorant one is."