I was asked to set up a basic...

[Juany118]

How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?

What effect has it had?

Maybe this is the issue. What's your job as a bouncer? It's not really self defense (meaning escape). Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc. A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.

The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance. Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives. BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe this is the issue. What's your job as a bouncer? It's not really self defense (meaning escape). Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc. A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.

The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance. Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives. BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.

No as a bouncer a strong slap is kind of a go to.

But bouncing is not really self defence.

I am probably one of a smaller group of people who have had to fight girls. And strong slap from a girl has never broken my momentum.

Spitting has had more effect.

 

[Juany118]

No as a bouncer a strong slap is kind of a go to.

But bouncing is not really self defence.

I am probably one of a smaller group of people who have had to fight girls. And strong slap from a girl has never broken my momentum.

Spitting has had more effect.

Regular slaps yeah but it terms of a slap (vs fast hands) I think an ear shot would indeed slow you. That is actually and *oh crap* go to for me with bigger people. Burst an ear drum once because I couldn't get to my knife and the guy was going for my taser.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe this is the issue. What's your job as a bouncer? It's not really self defense (meaning escape). Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc. A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.

The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance. Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives. BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.

I can agree with that. And I work with a progression. I want to immediately give them something that can improve their odds. As time permits, I add more (and better) tools. I agree with the basic principle DB is using - doing more damage is a better way to survive. I just don't agree with him that a timid newbie (nor even most "average" folks who come to me) will do more damage to their attacker with a closed hand. Most of them will practice harder hits with an open hand, and if I have them do closed-hand, about half will commit some pretty bad contortions in their wrist until corrected - things that make it likely they'll injure themselves if they were to hit hard.

 

[Brian King]

The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance. Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives. BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.

We don’t do techniques in the art that I study so of course I do not think that they are a requirement but also do not think that they would be a total waste of time for the students and can be a enjoyable use of time.

I would add that if a student can gain even a small additional insight into who they are and who the people around them are and what the world they live in…is, then this is a successful and worthy accomplishment. The working with others on martial aspects can be like a violence inoculation, protecting the student from possible future violence and helping them to process past violence.

Every participant at a workshop will gain something different unique from the other participants. Each has a unique life experience to draw on, each have different capabilities and attributes. Each will alone explore the material and experiences provided by the instructor and fellow students internally even while working externally with partners. It is like dying for even if surrounded by family and friends it must still be done alone.

Regards


Brian King

 

[hoshin1600]

all this talk about slaps reminds me of a karate 10th dan i know. he was at a ball game and 2 seats behind him some guy was drunk and obnoxious. the security folks couldnt get him out of his seat to escort him out. so this karate guy (who is also a LEO trainer) get up and asks the guy to cooperate and leave. nope ....so he slaps the guy and knocks him unconscious. security picks him up and halls him out ,, problem solved.

 

[lklawson]

I have palm heeled guys in street fights though.

Not that great.

Big guys yeah. Smaller guys not so much.

Noobs with limited training. Good luck with that

I have pulled weapons out and smacked people with them pretty successfully as well.

In fact the only time I lost one was when it was pulled from my belt.

That's nice. Irrelevant to your claims, but nice.

 

[lklawson]

How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?

What effect has it had?

So you are asking me for advice on how to bounce?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you are asking me for advice on how to bounce?

 

[drop bear]

Regular slaps yeah but it terms of a slap (vs fast hands) I think an ear shot would indeed slow you. That is actually and *oh crap* go to for me with bigger people. Burst an ear drum once because I couldn't get to my knife and the guy was going for my taser.

Ear shots are good.

A lot of that sort of stuff is positional. So you can hammer fist from here, ear shot from there elbow from somewhere else. But then that is a bunch of different strikes you either have to spend time drilling. Or gloss over a bit.

Personally I would gloss over them. Just because you can probably work that out for yourself anyway.

 

[drop bear]

That's nice. Irrelevant to your claims, but nice.

You didn't even know what my claim was.

 

[pdg]

At the risk of getting a reputation for dragging up previous topics...

I'm commenting on personal experience, not linking to videos or other published techniques because I'm hugely underqualified to judge either way.

In my life I have had 3 instances of physical 'self defence', all at school.

First time, I was about 11 and a ~15 year old grabbed me from behind with a (what I now know was a very poorly executed) rear choke. As I toppled backwards toward him I was able to kick his face over my head - he let go and started crying so I left - is that a 'win'?

Anyway, the two other instances are the relevant ones.

It was said earlier that broken hand = lost fight.

So, my second 'fight' - I got jumped, shoved by a couple of people when I tried to leave and then punched and knocked out. The person who punched me sustained a fractured 4th metacarpal. I'd say that I substantially lost that fight even though I was the one with unbroken hands.

Third instance was a couple of months later, a small group approached me and one came forward, swinging a wild overhead hammer fist. I blocked it with my left arm and a right hand hook/haymaker put him on the floor which ended the confrontation. What else happened? I fractured the 4th metacarpal in my right hand...

So, let's do some statistical analysis based on this sample of data. In 100% of cases where punches were involved the punching hand sustained injury but 'won'.

In the 33% of cases where a kick was involved that kick proved 100% successful in 'winning' with no injury to the defender.

Statistically, according to that data set, kicks are as reliable as punches but have a lower instance of operator injury


To conflict this, I asked the wife to make a fist as if she was going to hit someone...

First attempt without thinking was like this:



Second attempt:




From seeing what goes on in the classes I attend, the fingers wrapped around the thumb posture is very common, especially in females - and it takes weeks of one-hour-per-week attendances to drill that out (and it keeps coming back).

Would a dislocated or broken thumb be more instantly debilitating than a cracked metacarpal?

 

[Juany118]

At the risk of getting a reputation for dragging up previous topics...

I'm commenting on personal experience, not linking to videos or other published techniques because I'm hugely underqualified to judge either way.

In my life I have had 3 instances of physical 'self defence', all at school.

First time, I was about 11 and a ~15 year old grabbed me from behind with a (what I now know was a very poorly executed) rear choke. As I toppled backwards toward him I was able to kick his face over my head - he let go and started crying so I left - is that a 'win'?

Anyway, the two other instances are the relevant ones.

It was said earlier that broken hand = lost fight.

So, my second 'fight' - I got jumped, shoved by a couple of people when I tried to leave and then punched and knocked out. The person who punched me sustained a fractured 4th metacarpal. I'd say that I substantially lost that fight even though I was the one with unbroken hands.

Third instance was a couple of months later, a small group approached me and one came forward, swinging a wild overhead hammer fist. I blocked it with my left arm and a right hand hook/haymaker put him on the floor which ended the confrontation. What else happened? I fractured the 4th metacarpal in my right hand...

So, let's do some statistical analysis based on this sample of data. In 100% of cases where punches were involved the punching hand sustained injury but 'won'.

In the 33% of cases where a kick was involved that kick proved 100% successful in 'winning' with no injury to the defender.

Statistically, according to that data set, kicks are as reliable as punches but have a lower instance of operator injury


To conflict this, I asked the wife to make a fist as if she was going to hit someone...

First attempt without thinking was like this:

View attachment 21259

Second attempt:

View attachment 21260


From seeing what goes on in the classes I attend, the fingers wrapped around the thumb posture is very common, especially in females - and it takes weeks of one-hour-per-week attendances to drill that out (and it keeps coming back).

Would a dislocated or broken thumb be more instantly debilitating than a cracked metacarpal?

I would only say first that a "kids" fight isn't necessary applicable as children are more prone to being knocked out, as well as receiving concussions.

In terms of the kick we are again talking about a "kid fight" not a determined assault ("simple or sexual), robbery etc. That assailant isn't going to start crying and just run away. So again I fail to see how this would be relevant to the topic at hand.

You also have this factor.
Benefits Of The Palm Strike - SciFighting

As shown earlier, and you also allude to this, a punch takes more training than a palm, especially if you are using an open handed palm, and they can both exert similar amounts of force (as the article above points out). The main advantage of a punch is when it comes to "digging" into soft tissue, like going for a liver shot, but trading body blows with an assailant isn't a good idea imo, especially if you are smaller and aren't going to be trained as much as is necessary to properly execute shots to the sensitive soft tissue targets.

 

[pdg]

I would only say first that a "kids" fight isn't necessary applicable as children are more prone to being knocked out, as well as receiving concussions.

The applicable part is that a broken/damaged hand caused by punching doesn't necessarily mean that all is lost - there are degrees of broken which may or may not disable that hand. I didn't notice I'd damaged my hand until it started swelling later in the day.

Would an adult feel more debilitating pain from the same injury?

My view on palm vs. fist is that a swinging 'slap' type open palm is definitely a more natural action for most people and takes little in the way of training to learn to aim. But once you get toward a 'direct' palm heel strike - more like a jab/cross action - then the chance of a more severe wrist injury increases greatly.

In terms of the kick we are again talking about a "kid fight" not a determined assault ("simple or sexual), robbery etc. That assailant isn't going to start crying and just run away. So again I fail to see how this would be relevant to the topic at hand.

I only really included it so I could make my partly sarcastic statistical analysis...

But that said, while my assailant was still 'a kid' he was older, bigger, stronger and had a bully reputation. He was used to picking his targets based on the fact (he thought) he could easily overpower them. Is that really so different to every adult attacker? Surely not every attack (simple or sexual) starts with the assailant 'squaring up' to his/her intended victim.

A kick to the face from that position was a new surprise for him - while an adult might not cry about it the situational shock will likely work a whole lot better than an elbow that they've probably shaken off many times before.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe it's possible to train in a few hours a smiley slight girl to deliver an elbow strike to a larger attacker's abdomen with sufficient force to disrupt them while said girl is off balance and under stress and their assailant is tensed in 'fight mode' - as shown in multiple videos where the instructor grabs a giggling girl from behind, leaning over her so she's fully upright then says "oof" and lets go when she gently taps him with her elbow.

A shoe in the face (delivered from a more 'real' position, where you're already leaning backwards and probably holding the attacker's arm that's around your neck) might just be enough 'shock and awe' to let the victim cry and run away instead.


Thing is, I'm far from an expert - everything I've said might be complete bs (it's only able to be substantiated by my experiences in those particular situations)...

 

[Juany118]

The problem is that the KO "win" is based on an age where the KO itself is easier to achieve due to the nature of human development. Outside of that range the chances for a KO are greatly reduced. If they are reduced then you are FAR more likely to have a conscious opponent while you now have one broken hand, a weakness they can now exploit. When you add in the fact it is easier to teach the palm, and this is about a short term self defense classes, it seems illogical to teach the punch due to both dynamics.

One also has to remember that fighting "instincts" improve with experience/age. So say you are doing a straight shot to the face. The instinct to cover and lower the head becomes more firmly imbeded in adults that are used to conflict than with kids, so you get what this video shows early on...

 

[pdg]

The problem is that the KO "win" is based on an age where the KO itself is easier to achieve due to the nature of human development. Outside of that range the chances for a KO are greatly reduced. If they are reduced then you are FAR more likely to have a conscious opponent while you now have one broken hand, a weakness they can now exploit. When you add in the fact it is easier to teach the palm, and this is about a short term self defense classes, it seems illogical to teach the punch due to both dynamics.

If you have to teach a fist, don't try to teach a punch. It's just not going to work. I think we agree on that much?

If you're running with a small enough group you could possibly assess which ones have the natural propensity to make a fist and a direct punch and those who don't and short term train accordingly.

Trying to teach a punch to someone with a 'slap' mindset is not a good idea.

But, is trying to teach a 'slap' to a person with a 'clench and jab' natural reaction any better?

Again, no expert, this is why I think large audience self defence short courses are fundamentally flawed.




As for the other points, I apologise as I now see I failed to explain properly...

Through my 3 personal examples there was only one knock out, and that was me. The two fisticuffs moments were between 15 year olds (easier to ko than a full adult yes, but a bit above 'kiddy' range).

The instance where I got a punch in - an attack was caught, a counter was made. That counter (which was probably as much push as actual impact, notwithstanding my fractured hand) was enough to get him off balance and fall over, while at the same time giving his accomplices slight pause for thought. In a 'street' scenario that pause is a good head start with the running and shouting.

The kick didn't result in a ko either - what it resulted in was more like "wtf, where did that come from? what just happened?" - again, a good running/shouting head start.

 

[oftheherd1]

Just a couple of thoughts:

A trained and practiced fist can be very effective, depending on where it is delivered. By trained and effective, I think the meaning should be someone who practices using and toughening on a regular basis. To teach it properly also means doing it in a manner least likely to cause injury to the striker.

A palm strike unfortunately needs training also. And depending on where the strike will be delivered increases the training needed to make it effective, and not injurious to the striker (less so than a fist imho). I don't agree with the gentleman in Juany118's link that the fingers need to be curled for every strike, and that is another training objective to teach. I understand his reasoning, I just don't think it would be an issue often enough to spend more precious training time on. Especially on an upward strike under the chin. The fingers are likely to almost naturally fall into the eyes providing another opportunity to injure an attacker.

I think pdg has a good point about identifying those who aren't good fist strikers from those who aren't good slappers and teach them what will work best for them. Even identifying which students are which will take more class time, but I think would pay off for the students in the long run.

Now we can all sit back and relax while waiting for Drop Bear to 'drop' in and show me the error of my ways.

 

[Juany118]

Just a couple of thoughts:

A trained and practiced fist can be very effective, depending on where it is delivered. By trained and effective, I think the meaning should be someone who practices using and toughening on a regular basis. To teach it properly also means doing it in a manner least likely to cause injury to the striker.

A palm strike unfortunately needs training also. And depending on where the strike will be delivered increases the training needed to make it effective, and not injurious to the striker (less so than a fist imho). I don't agree with the gentleman in Juany118's link that the fingers need to be curled for every strike, and that is another training objective to teach. I understand his reasoning, I just don't think it would be an issue often enough to spend more precious training time on. Especially on an upward strike under the chin. The fingers are likely to almost naturally fall into the eyes providing another opportunity to injure an attacker.

I think pdg has a good point about identifying those who aren't good fist strikers from those who aren't good slappers and teach them what will work best for them. Even identifying which students are which will take more class time, but I think would pay off for the students in the long run.

Now we can all sit back and relax while waiting for Drop Bear to 'drop' in and show me the error of my ways.

I don't agree with curled either, my Wing Chun palm doesn't have curled fingers. The purpose of the link was more in reference to energy transfer. Some people are under the impression a punch inherently hits harder when it doesn't. Previously I also showed a video regarding "fast hands". All of that together is why I think a WC style palm strike is best with the teaining constraints. Get it right it is as good as a fist. Get it wrong it's still enough to potentially rock someone enough that you can run, get it wrong in the right way your finger inadvertently went into an eye, etc. Vs a punch that needs correct training not just with the hand but wrist alignment etc. At MOST this will be a whopping 16 hour course over days. Perhaps as short as 8-10 compressed into 2 days. It's all about time management.

 

[Buka]

all this talk about slaps reminds me of a karate 10th dan i know. he was at a ball game and 2 seats behind him some guy was drunk and obnoxious. the security folks couldnt get him out of his seat to escort him out. so this karate guy (who is also a LEO trainer) get up and asks the guy to cooperate and leave. nope ....so he slaps the guy and knocks him unconscious. security picks him up and halls him out ,, problem solved.

Heh, heh, heh. Was it who I think it was?

 

[hoshin1600]

Heh, heh, heh. Was it who I think it was?

It would not be uncharacteristic of anyone in that group. Lol. But this one is Canadian. If you were thinking of the Brockton dojo. He's not a 10th dan yet. Few more years before he does.