I was asked to set up a basic...

[Gerry Seymour]

Now you are just being obtuse. First I corrected myself and clarified that it was if/when hands wrists were injured. I am basing it off of the totality of circumstances. At Max a 16 hour course with specific goals. I am not going to tell the women "change your lifestyle and cut your nails and lose the rings." I am not going to waste time teaching them how to simply make a fist and then properly punch. That would take up the entire course and be a waste of time because just knowing how to punch isn't self defense

Facts...

Palm strikes work.

People can win, and have won, fights with palm strikes. All you have to do is look at old Bas Rutten videos and watch how many KOs he got with a palm strike to the head.

Why did Bas do that? they werent wearing gloves at the time and a broken hand on a skulls means he will lose.

Palms are easier to teach to someone with no training (no need to train proper fist formation and wrist structure), though potentially harder to teach someone who already is a trained punched. A palm can also be taught in a shorter amount of time.

Yeah sure if I was starting my own dojo I would teach punches, hand conditioning etc. This isn't that kind of thing. It's a 10-16 hour self defense course, not setting up a martial arts school man.

The nails-and-rings thing is a huge consideration with short courses, and for SD training in general (for me, only the rings, since I require they cut their nails short). Punching someone while wearing thin rings is likely to be as damaging to the puncher as the punchee. With big, chunky rings, it's less of an issue. There may be bad bruising, but it's unlikely to affect them during the fight.

 

[hoshin1600]

Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.

Can you show me where these fight stopping hand injuries happen at all. Let alone is this common practice.

i think you inadvertently proved our point. from the women (there was a guy fight with punches) 99 % were not punches but hammer fists. different mechanics different strike. i was advocating to teach that exact strike, the hammer fist and i believe Juany was as well. it is a natural instinctual weapon and takes no training to do but training will make it better. you cannot show a video full of hammer fists to prove a point about boxing style punches.

 

[hoshin1600]

This is pretty much all you need to teach.

If nothing else you should include the cucumber part.

i couldnt even watch it !!! this is everything that makes my head explode. ill have a brain aneurysm just from the typed font and the guy talking on what to do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i couldnt even watch it !!! this is everything that makes my head explode. ill have a brain aneurysm just from the typed font and the guy talking on what to do.

Stuff like this makes me start to rant like @drop bear. And that's his job, damnit!

 

[Juany118]

And, unfortunately, damned hard to really train in the dojo. We can create some bits to help develop the habit, but mostly it's on the student to work on this.

True. The idea is to get them to think about it. Since the University is an "island" in a not so great City, and the Grad student housing is an apartment complex off Campus, I am hoping that will "click" for them more easily than with others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True. The idea is to get them to think about it. Since the University is an "island" in a not so great City, and the Grad student housing is an apartment complex off Campus, I am hoping that will "click" for them more easily than with others.

Some things (like this), part of what I want to do is "give them permission" to follow this instinct. I hope it feels somewhat less foolish when they've been told it's a good idea, so they're less inhibited about crossing the street when something looks off.

 

[drop bear]

i think you inadvertently proved our point. from the women (there was a guy fight with punches) 99 % were not punches but hammer fists. different mechanics different strike. i was advocating to teach that exact strike, the hammer fist and i believe Juany was as well. it is a natural instinctual weapon and takes no training to do but training will make it better. you cannot show a video full of hammer fists to prove a point about boxing style punches.

That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.

No I think that is blatant fantasy.

And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.

No I think that is blatant fantasy.

And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.

He did clarify that he was talking specifically about fights that included a hand injury. I've not seen much evidence either way. I suspect some hand injuries are "game over" for some people, but not all, and some people seem to be less limited by them. Probably a difference in pain tolerance and experience with pain.

 

[drop bear]

The nails-and-rings thing is a huge consideration with short courses, and for SD training in general (for me, only the rings, since I require they cut their nails short). Punching someone while wearing thin rings is likely to be as damaging to the puncher as the punchee. With big, chunky rings, it's less of an issue. There may be bad bruising, but it's unlikely to affect them during the fight.

I wouldn't change a fighting system to accommodate someone's personal idiocy. What if they have high heels? Well we had just better change the course.

You would wind up compromising yourself in to nothing.

 

[drop bear]

He did clarify that he was talking specifically about fights that included a hand injury. I've not seen much evidence either way. I suspect some hand injuries are "game over" for some people, but not all, and some people seem to be less limited by them. Probably a difference in pain tolerance and experience with pain.

Going to suggest head injury is a greater deciding factor. And if you are not causing any you are going to have a bad day.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wouldn't change a fighting system to accommodate someone's personal idiocy. What if they have high heels? Well we had just better change the course.

You would wind up compromising yourself in to nothing.

You teach what's likely to help the audience, not what you want to teach. If some are likely to wear small rings and have long nails, you don't teach them something that makes those a bigger liability.

Same for teaching what folks can learn quickly, when they aren't likely to train long-term.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Going to suggest head injury is a greater deciding factor. And if you are not causing any you are going to have a bad day.

Most folks aren't going to hit hard enough to cause head injury after a total of a few hours of training, unless they were already hitting hard coming in.

 

[drop bear]

Most folks aren't going to hit hard enough to cause head injury after a total of a few hours of training, unless they were already hitting hard coming in.

And open hand is only going to make that harder to achieve.

 

[drop bear]

You teach what's likely to help the audience, not what you want to teach. If some are likely to wear small rings and have long nails, you don't teach them something that makes those a bigger liability.

Same for teaching what folks can learn quickly, when they aren't likely to train long-term.

Of course that system that will work without any time, ajustment and effort.

I love those.

 

[Juany118]

That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.

No I think that is blatant fantasy.

And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.

Hey look revisionist history. I said untrained punching risks injury to hands. When people have injured their hands they lose.

You then show a video claiming it proves that punches are dangerous BUT 99% of the strikes aren't punches. So the fantasy is yours.

 

[Juany118]

Since you like videos so much though here is a video where some MMA people with far more knowledge than us prove my point.

Bas saying a trained fighter against ONE opponent should punch for body shots but decribes how he gets knock outs and why punches to the head are dangerous...

And this is his partner speaking to why you need to condition your hands...

There are many others btw. If you want to say Bas is clueless, good luck with that.

So MMA guys also talking about the danger of punches to the heah, and if you are going to do it condition. Something a short self defense course doesn't allow for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And open hand is only going to make that harder to achieve.

Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course that system that will work without any time, ajustment and effort.

I love those.

I’m not even sure what you’re on about now.

 

[Juany118]

Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.

Or a solid palm strike.

 

[Juany118]

Apologies the first video I linked above was somehow broken. Here is one with sound..