I was asked to set up a basic...

[lklawson]

The only other option is that he is intentionally being obtuse moving goal posts, raising non sequiturs and engaging in strawman arguments just to cause drama.

At this point it almost has to be one of these two because fine, he wants to say that other "mere" forum goers don't know what we are talking about but to actively ignore/dismiss near universally recognized experts like Bas Rutten and his crew, among others? You either have to be stubborn to the point of it being pathological or intentionally just stirring the pot.

Based on the fact that we have watched him make pronouncements regarding situations and techniques which he's admitted he has no experience or training in...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I agree with the timidity issue and to me that is part of the training issue. There are a lot of people who are afraid of hurting themselves when punching, but getting them to palm, hammerfist or slap (slaps on ears HURT) with force behind it takes very little effort and that means there is more time for other things. I would suspect that it is an equally difficult task to get a student comfortable enough with ways to free oneself from being grabbed, so they won't panic, and since there are effective strikes that aren't punches, time would be better spent there. It's just, to my mind, a matter of cost/benefit analysis.

As you said though, if a punch could be taught effectively, in this context, I would be interested to know, but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here. From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots and typically smaller females will find body shots less effective so strikes to the head/neck are focused on to get the element of "shock" that is useful to aid in escape.

Well... Humans are tool users.

An old Silat friend of mine used to say, "You don't eat with your hands, why would you fight with them?"



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

But this set up is not for me.

Hammer fists.

What? This wasn't a hammer fist attack. You can tell from the position of her right elbow during the swing (and the path of the swing itself) that her fist was pronated (palm down). This was nothing more than a massively telegraphed haymaker.

 

[Juany118]

Well... Humans are tool users.

An old Silat friend of mine used to say, "You don't eat with your hands, why would you fight with them?"



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That's one of the reasons why I will be including weapons of opportunity. How to properly hold keys (no you don't put them between your fingers ), are you holding an umbrella etc. It will be based on FMA principles though so Prof Donnelly might not approve

 

[lklawson]

That's one of the reasons why I will be including weapons of opportunity. How to properly hold keys (no you don't put them between your fingers ), are you holding an umbrella etc.

Sounds like good to me.

It will be based on FMA principles though so Prof Donnelly might not approve

Ned or Mark?

For Ned, well some of his footwork looks a bit FMA-ish:

Ned Donnelly - Side Step by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

...and Donnelly's "In-Fighting" would be instantly recognizable to FMA guys (and a lot of others):

Ned Donnelly - Infighting by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

While there have been persistent discussions about whether or not FMA's influenced boxing or if boxing influenced FMA's, I think it's probably just a case of parallel evolution. Humans only move, punch, and break in so many ways. It's unavoidable that martial pursuits which move, punch, and break humans are going to have some things which look similar.

Now, if we're talking about Prof. Mark Donnelly, I'm on friendly terms with him but I really haven't spoken with him in some years. I could probably reach out to him if anyone really wanted.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Juany118]

Sounds like good to me.

Ned or Mark?

For Ned, well some of his footwork looks a bit FMA-ish:

Ned Donnelly - Side Step by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

...and Donnelly's "In-Fighting" would be instantly recognizable to FMA guys (and a lot of others):

Ned Donnelly - Infighting by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

While there have been persistent discussions about whether or not FMA's influenced boxing or if boxing influenced FMA's, I think it's probably just a case of parallel evolution. Humans only move, punch, and break in so many ways. It's unavoidable that martial pursuits which move, punch, and break humans are going to have some things which look similar.

Now, if we're talking about Prof. Mark Donnelly, I'm on friendly terms with him but I really haven't spoken with him in some years. I could probably reach out to him if anyone really wanted.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I meant Mark. I attend events he sometimes does seminars at, and sells canes, one of which I bought. It was kinda a "personal" joke because at one he was teaching some basics of Scottish knife fighting. I wasn't speaking with him but one of his students that was assisting. I pointed out that Kali and Wing Chun shared a similar defense to a downward reverse grip stab and the student gave me a look that said "if it's not Scottish it's crap"

As for the boxing part I do think Western Boxing had an influence as there is evidence. What is usually called "Dirty boxing" tends to be stronger in the areas where the Spanish, and then the US, established firm control. In the far South, where neither established firm control, there are pockets of more obvious Silat influence (a number of Muslim/Indonesian Empires had a lot of contact with the Philippines before the Spanish arrived) in the empty hand striking. There are even styles there that call themselves Silat. The grappling however appears to remain fairly similar though, based on my research at least, which is decent but not all encompassing.

My guess is that cultural influence can have a greater impact on striking in a blade oriented culture, vs grappling. All blade oriented styles have grappling so you can get to your weapon or stop the other guys weapons if you have none. There are simply more limited ways to avoid getting cut.

 

[lklawson]

I meant Mark. I attend events he sometimes does seminars at, and sells canes, one of which I bought. It was kinda a "personal" joke because at one he was teaching some basics of Scottish knife fighting. I wasn't speaking with him but one of his students that was assisting. I pointed out that Kali and Wing Chun shared a similar defense to a downward reverse grip stab and the student gave me a look that said "if it's not Scottish it's crap"

Maybe a certain amount of martial arrogance and conceit is unavoidable regardless of the origin.

I probably haven't met the assistant in question but it might also be that the fellow is used to people with other martial backgrounds insisting that the HEMA stuff is too basic, identical to what they already do (so why do they care?), or often even just straight up stolen from some other art and being passed off as Western origin. I've seen all of those and more. It still boggles me that people would pay good money and spend their finite time to go to someone else' seminar when they believe that it's stolen or non useful.

I used to have a friend who would go to WMA seminars I was teaching at and spend a lot of his time explaining to his training partners there the way they did it in his Karate style. It didn't take too many times before his partners would start to feel very strongly that they didn't give a crap if his style would strike with the Bo slightly different from this Quarterstaff technique or they'd punch different, just do the technique that the instructor is showing.

Nice enough guy other than that and some quirks. I don't want to talk bad about him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Juany118]

Maybe a certain amount of martial arrogance and conceit is unavoidable regardless of the origin.

I probably haven't met the assistant in question but it might also be that the fellow is used to people with other martial backgrounds insisting that the HEMA stuff is too basic, identical to what they already do (so why do they care?), or often even just straight up stolen from some other art and being passed off as Western origin. I've seen all of those and more. It still boggles me that people would pay good money and spend their finite time to go to someone else' seminar when they believe that it's stolen or non useful.

I used to have a friend who would go to WMA seminars I was teaching at and spend a lot of his time explaining to his training partners there the way they did it in his Karate style. It didn't take too many times before his partners would start to feel very strongly that they didn't give a crap if his style would strike with the Bo slightly different from this Quarterstaff technique or they'd punch different, just do the technique that the instructor is showing.

Nice enough guy other than that and some quirks. I don't want to talk bad about him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

You might be right. I was only speaking of a specific technique and perhaps trying to express a point myself and a friend, who is a dedicated HEMA practitioner, have realized from comparing notes between FMA and HEMA, biomechanics are biomechanics. As an example, my FMA training won't have much to say with long sword, but sword and buckler, saber styles? We started to see the similarities. It could have been a 20 something kid not realizing this almost 50 something kid was just saying "the more things change the more they stay the same, not better or worse."

 

[lklawson]

You might be right. I was only speaking of a specific technique and perhaps trying to express a point myself and a friend, who is a dedicated HEMA practitioner, have realized from comparing notes between FMA and HEMA, biomechanics are biomechanics. As an example, my FMA training won't have much to say with long sword, but sword and buckler, saber styles? We started to see the similarities. It could have been a 20 something kid not realizing this almost 50 something kid was just saying "the more things change the more they stay the same, not better or worse."

Meh. I'm just speculating anyway.

But yeah, you're right that a saber of a given shape is going to be used pretty much the same way, caeteris paribus, regardless if it's a Philippine Pirate or a Spanish Pirate. 'Cuz... PIRATES!

 

[drop bear]

What? This wasn't a hammer fist attack. You can tell from the position of her right elbow during the swing (and the path of the swing itself) that her fist was pronated (palm down). This was nothing more than a massively telegraphed haymaker.

What is your personal experience with street fights?

 

[lklawson]

What is your personal experience with street fights?

I've had a few fights. What do you need advice on?

 

[Brian King]

Juany118,

Congratulations and good luck with your program.

A few quick thoughts. If the women match up with statistics, some will have faced violence and trauma during their childhood and as young women. With this in mind, a couple of suggestions.

1. Do not put them into scenario training until you know them and have earned their trust, that type of training can do unintended harm to them.

2. As a way of earning their trust and giving them some limited power, ask permission prior to touching them or having them touch you. For example, if working wrist grabs/escapes and wanting to demonstrate with a student, ask that student, “would you mind grabbing my wrist?” Another example is while observing two students working wrist grabs and wanting to move one of their arms into a different permission ask “do you mind if I touch your arm here/there? Ask every time, not just once at the beginning of the day or the program.

3. Be aware of looming. Looming is being too close and overhead to a student. This is most disconcerting and intimidating while doing any groundwork it is also negative while standing and/or moving upright. Ask to approach and do so from a direction that is not intimidating or remindful of prior confrontations or abuses that they may have survived. Keep a little distance and do not be directly over them.

Besides prior trauma many people (not only females but males as well) will have a tough time with any body to body contact, let alone scooping eyes out with thumbs or smashing tender parts. I have seen great success on overcoming this by incorporating safe body contact into the warm-ups and cool downs. A couple of quick examples. Have the students interlock arms in groups of three or four so that they are back to back(ish) in a small circle facing outwards. Then as a group have them do a squat then sit on the floor with their legs out straight, then have them get back up to their feet. (Hint – it is MUCH easier if they lean back into each other and push each other back up but don’t tell them too quickly- let them work on it a bit). Have them do these three or four times. For push-ups have them form a circle with one arm on the scapula of the person (to the right or left your choice) next to them and with the other arm as a group do a push up, after a few switch arms. Another GREAT partnered push up is one partner laying on the ground and the other partner doing push-ups on the partner that is laying on the ground. Have the person doing the push-ups work all around their partners body including stomach and face (with permission and if not pregnant, duh) If they can they should be doing push-ups on fist but not that big a deal. After ten or so switch. Advanced version is person on the ground allowed to slowly barrel roll around on the ground, which of course makes the push-ups much more challenging. For partnered sit-ups, have the one not doing sit-ups to position their body near the one doing sit-ups so that they can place their hands on the shoulders, head and (with permission face) of the one doing sit-ups. Their job is to provide resistance to the one doing sit-ups. It is NOT to stop them, but ‘merely’ to provide some resistance. These type of exercises Jauny118 help them get used to both receiving and giving contact in a safe, healthy, and fun way. It helps them build trust in their fellow students, which will come in handy during further training and study.

For cool downs I HIGHLY recommend partnered massage. One such is a three, four, or more person massage. One student lays on the floor and the others sit around that student. The student laying on the floor mission is to lay there and breathe deeply and calmly. The other students then place their fists on that student’s body and gently apply body weight. When the student laying there tenses up the students should not remove their fists but rather hold that exact position and depth and let the student on the ground thru breathing and forced relaxation (sometimes momentarily adding then removing tension will help) get comfortable with the contact and the crowd of people around them. The students placing and the student being massaged learn where painful and where comfortable/uncomfortable places are for their fists on peoples body…while getting a massage. Another type of massage is partner taps their partner with slaps…all over. It is invigorating done with depth and calming when done on the surface. It also gets the students used to ‘hitting and being hit’ while in a safe and fun environment

Regarding any techniques, you are thinking of introducing them to, be able to demonstrate them while wearing high heels and a dress. Kicks can be done in heels but it is likely different than your normal method.

I too recommend slapping but I advise them to turn their ring stones towards their palm when urban walking or feeling nervous. Besides ‘hiding’ their rings and valuables, it adds cutting and ripping to the slap. If above the eyes, it can cause blood to temporarily hinder the sight of their attacker. You might want to tell them, that it also marks the attacker for later identification should the attacker be picked up by the police and (you might not want to tell them) it also collects DNA should that be necessary.

Try to be able to articulate that any weakness they might feel is also a possible strength. High heels make kicking and running difficult but can be improvised weapons. Being smaller means a larger opponent often has to break their posture in order to grab them, being sensitive with work can be more intuitive and aware etc…

Have a printed out reading list that also has your contact info. Gaven DeBeckers book “the gift of fear” is a good one, Massad Ayoob “in the gravest extreme” is a good older book. Rory Miller has some good books, Kris Wilder and others.

Have a printed review that they can fill out and leave or send to you. Criticism will help you in the future.

Also, last but not least, 20 years, wow. Thank you for your service


Regards

Brian King

 

[Juany118]

Thanks @Brian King on all counts. Your #1 won't be as big an issue as it might usually be. My first group (if I can ever get them to agree to a schedule lol) will be the cohort my Girlfriend is already a part of. I already know a fair number of them and I think those I don't know will give some trust to her judgement that I am not a creeper

 

[Brian King]

Thanks @Brian King on all counts. Your #1 won't be as big an issue as it might usually be. My first group (if I can ever get them to agree to a schedule lol) will be the cohort my Girlfriend is already a part of. I already know a fair number of them and I think those I don't know will give some trust to her judgement that I am not a creeper

That’s great. You usually see the effects of childhood abuse, beatings, and rapes written on their bodies and in the psyche long before they trust you enough and gain enough trust in themselves, to re-live and tell you about their pain and experiences. If they get into scenario training that forces them to re-live their attacks and abuse before they are, or you are, ready it can cause them harm. It is not so much about them thinking you are or are not a creeper. If they have been friends for a while, they have all seen each other date creeps. That does not really matter; after all, the training is NOT about you/the instructor. The training is about them and giving them strength and trust in themselves, so that they can trust that inner warning voice and keep their head if and when a violent confrontation happens and to perhaps keep their head enough to be aware before it happens, or to see the continued violent patterns of their and their friends life. In your group of ten, three or more will likely have suffered from abuse or seeing their mother abused. It is behind them but is still there. Approached slowly, and with all eyes open is in my opinion the best way to deal with it. It does not have to red man, yelling, weapons, vulgar language to set off their stress trauma responses. The scenario training can be as innocent as wrist grabs, chokes, grabs from behind, hands on face, eyes, or neck, restraint, or body positions and still have negative effect on the students. Watch carefully, listen to their breathing, watch their eyes and color of skin, listen to the tone of their voice and count the syllables of the words that they are using. Keep any excess tension out of your face and eyes, keep you voice low tone and modulated. Do not ever judge and let them have space if they need it. Help them by reminding them not to hold their breathing in, keep their shoulders down etc. Now and then, take a break when doing serious work and do push-ups or some other non-combative physical activity that uses energy and requires muscles moving.

Good luck, I am sure that the workshop will be a positive and worthwhile exercise for you and them.

Regards

Brian King

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s great. You usually see the effects of childhood abuse, beatings, and rapes written on their bodies and in the psyche long before they trust you enough and gain enough trust in themselves, to re-live and tell you about their pain and experiences. If they get into scenario training that forces them to re-live their attacks and abuse before they are, or you are, ready it can cause them harm. It is not so much about them thinking you are or are not a creeper. If they have been friends for a while, they have all seen each other date creeps. That does not really matter; after all, the training is NOT about you/the instructor. The training is about them and giving them strength and trust in themselves, so that they can trust that inner warning voice and keep their head if and when a violent confrontation happens and to perhaps keep their head enough to be aware before it happens, or to see the continued violent patterns of their and their friends life. In your group of ten, three or more will likely have suffered from abuse or seeing their mother abused. It is behind them but is still there. Approached slowly, and with all eyes open is in my opinion the best way to deal with it. It does not have to red man, yelling, weapons, vulgar language to set off their stress trauma responses. The scenario training can be as innocent as wrist grabs, chokes, grabs from behind, hands on face, eyes, or neck, restraint, or body positions and still have negative effect on the students. Watch carefully, listen to their breathing, watch their eyes and color of skin, listen to the tone of their voice and count the syllables of the words that they are using. Keep any excess tension out of your face and eyes, keep you voice low tone and modulated. Do not ever judge and let them have space if they need it. Help them by reminding them not to hold their breathing in, keep their shoulders down etc. Now and then, take a break when doing serious work and do push-ups or some other non-combative physical activity that uses energy and requires muscles moving.

Good luck, I am sure that the workshop will be a positive and worthwhile exercise for you and them.

Regards

Brian King

You make a good point, Brian.

@Juany118, I had an attendee who was a survivor lose it in situation training. Her husband was her partner and knew of the issue, but didn't expect it to be such a problem when he laid his hands gently at her neck. It took me a good bit of effort to help her stay in the moment and stay calm. She (and he) asked about taking classes, but never showed up for classes. I suspect if I'd given that warning up front and been more on top of her reaction (spotting it early with the cues Brian refers to), I might have spared her some major anxiety, and they might have felt comfortable enough to train with me long-term. I missed a chance to help her.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wouldn't recommend kicking in high heels. Even if the woman has great balance and excellent kicks, the shoe itself may not hold up depending on the type of heel. It's a big risk factor in terms of self-defense. If the opportunity exists then the best thing to do is do what this lady did.

This doesn't only apply to heels but also flip flops or any sandals that don't fit close to the feet. The main reason is that keeping them on divides your attention between defending yourself and trying not to break your ankle. If the woman works in downtown environment then I would recommend doing what many women here in Atlanta do. They carry a bag that can hold another pair of shoes or they remove the heels and wear a more practical shoe. It's common to see women who work in corporate offices wear heels when they are in the building and wear a more comfortable type of shoe when they go out to eat lunch. Some women wear a lower heel which gives more stability and it makes it possible for them to work more on the ball of their feet than a high heel.

I know in some cases it won't be an option to have multiple shoes, but taking heels off vs keeping them on is always an option.

 

[Brian King]

I had an attendee who was a survivor lose it in situation training. Her husband was her partner and knew of the issue, but didn't expect it to be such a problem when he laid his hands gently at her neck. It took me a good bit of effort to help her stay in the moment and stay calm. She (and he) asked about taking classes, but never showed up for classes. I suspect if I'd given that warning up front and been more on top of her reaction (spotting it early with the cues Brian refers to), I might have spared her some major anxiety, and they might have felt comfortable enough to train with me long-term. I missed a chance to help her.

Thanks Gpseymour,

A couple of quick things. I actually STRONGLY advise couples (and fathers and children) not to train together at workshops. I think that it is not only not healthy but I also think that is very unhealthy in many ways for them to partner during a workshop (and if new to martial arts to even partner during regular classes) The talk to them goes something like this. “Have you ever been called a bad name and/or disrespected by a stranger? Now imagine your wife/husband calling you that same name. It is much more powerful, it cuts much deeper with loved ones vs strangers. This is martial practice and we are training, exploring, and learning here. Your partner will at some time during the days training hit you harder than you think they should have, they might twist and bend a joint further or harder than is comfortable for you. They will make contact and it will hurt. It might or might not be intentional. Everyone is learning on both sides of the equation. When your loved one punches too quickly, too hard, you WILL feel betrayed by the one that you love. For the first time (hopefully) your loved one will hit you and use violence upon your body. That is not something that I feel is healthy for either psyche. Then there is the other side. Your loved one is expected during this workshop to hit and twist your body. They will have to go from protector to attacker and/or from nurturer and comforter to attacker. The seeing and feeling this change in roles will affect your psyche and importantly your relationship. The possible negative benefits far outweigh any positive benefits from training together during this workshop”.


You also wrote “I missed a chance to help her.” How do you know? Perhaps that goose was enough to get her professional help (and him as well for dealing with the guilt of ‘hurting her’). As instructors, remember, we do not help/teach the students. It is rather the students doing the work helps the students. We can injure and hurt the students but help, not so much in my opinion. Do not beat yourself up too much over the incident. Sometimes we teach and sometimes we are taught. If not done on purpose or thru deliberate negligence learn from it and share the lessons (which you have done…hat tip)

I hope that makes sense.

Regards

Brian King

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks Gpseymour,

A couple of quick things. I actually STRONGLY advise couples (and fathers and children) not to train together at workshops. I think that it is not only not healthy but I also think that is very unhealthy in many ways for them to partner during a workshop (and if new to martial arts to even partner during regular classes) The talk to them goes something like this. “Have you ever been called a bad name and/or disrespected by a stranger? Now imagine your wife/husband calling you that same name. It is much more powerful, it cuts much deeper with loved ones vs strangers. This is martial practice and we are training, exploring, and learning here. Your partner will at some time during the days training hit you harder than you think they should have, they might twist and bend a joint further or harder than is comfortable for you. They will make contact and it will hurt. It might or might not be intentional. Everyone is learning on both sides of the equation. When your loved one punches too quickly, too hard, you WILL feel betrayed by the one that you love. For the first time (hopefully) your loved one will hit you and use violence upon your body. That is not something that I feel is healthy for either psyche. Then there is the other side. Your loved one is expected during this workshop to hit and twist your body. They will have to go from protector to attacker and/or from nurturer and comforter to attacker. The seeing and feeling this change in roles will affect your psyche and importantly your relationship. The possible negative benefits far outweigh any positive benefits from training together during this workshop”.


You also wrote “I missed a chance to help her.” How do you know? Perhaps that goose was enough to get her professional help (and him as well for dealing with the guilt of ‘hurting her’). As instructors, remember, we do not help/teach the students. It is rather the students doing the work helps the students. We can injure and hurt the students but help, not so much in my opinion. Do not beat yourself up too much over the incident. Sometimes we teach and sometimes we are taught. If not done on purpose or thru deliberate negligence learn from it and share the lessons (which you have done…hat tip)

I hope that makes sense.

Regards

Brian King

Excellent advice, all through, Brian. I have to say I've never really thought about that first part. I've taught many couples, and they've almost all started together, and almost all trained together mostly as partners. And now, with my small program, it's almost unavoidable. But you've given me good food for thought. At the very least - when I can't see a way to allow that separation for the early training - I should probably have a "couples talk" (or even "family talk") before letting them train together.

 

[drop bear]

Based on the fact that we have watched him make pronouncements regarding situations and techniques which he's admitted he has no experience or training in...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I have palm heeled guys in street fights though.

Not that great.

Big guys yeah. Smaller guys not so much.

Noobs with limited training. Good luck with that

I have pulled weapons out and smacked people with them pretty successfully as well.

In fact the only time I lost one was when it was pulled from my belt.

 

[drop bear]

I've had a few fights. What do you need advice on?

How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?

What effect has it had?