How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Jake104]

It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations

This is a good post. I feel you and I are alike. You get it. You're like me. You have practical experience other than WC. I think you appreciate and get what the art or any art for that matter has to offer.

 

[Jake104]

This is a good point. When I first started Bjj in 2006 Nogi was pretty rare in many schools. Now Nogi is everywhere. Why? Because its a response to MMA, Wrestling, and competitive Grappling. In response to Barnett beating Lister, many Bjj schools are relearning Catch wrestling techniques. This is all merely an example of an evolving, adapting art. Many TMAs haven't changed their methods in decades, if not centuries.

Sorry but all the name dropping really isn't helping your point. It's coming off more like fan boyism.

 

[Jake104]

Sorry but all the name dropping really isn't helping your point. It's coming of more like fan boyism.

I want to like you and see your point but.......

 

[Hanzou]

It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations

MMA-based styles also have self defense applications. However, they can turn off that aspect and switch to competitive/sport mode and execute their techniques with relative ease.

Why can't Wing Chun?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade.

If we include ancient weapon into our MA discussion, many MA systems such as boxing, MT, SC, Judo, wrestling, BJJ, ... all won't make much sense any more. So where should we draw the line?

With just $19.99, you can have a spikes ring on your finger, who will even want to fight you with open hands?

If you can have a long Guan Dao or spear and if you are good at it, who will even want to fight you with boxing gloves?

How about these kind of short and long weapon tournament? Many systems don't train these either.

 

[Mephisto]

It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations

Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.

 

[KPM]

Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.

I agree with you. When I do stick work, I refer to it as "stick boxing", taking my lead from an approach I learned from Ted Lucaylucay. I practice Panantukan with a western boxing base much more than I practice the stick. So when I do pick up a stick and work with it, I use my western boxing mechanics as much as possible. Same with the knife. Works fine! ;-)

I would say Wing Chun should be about taking center and disrupting an opponent's balance and structure more than precise timing with the hands (which would be "chasing hands" and considered a "no no" in Wing Chun) but I do also agree with you that Wing Chun is much less evasive with use of distancing than is FMA or Boxing. Most Wing Chun has little to no "outside" game and relies on closing immediately with the opponent to get to "Wing Chun range." If the opponent has good footwork and evasive skills...then the Wing Chun guy can be in trouble!

 

[Jake104]

Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.

Where do I start? First, I study in a solid FMA that has a "boxing approach". From what I have learned and believe is that distances and angles are very important when dealing with a weapon. But once engaged evasion or the in and out approach will probably get you killed. If you pull a stick or knife on me you better commit. If not and you give me the chance. I pull my other weapon a 45acp and you're dead. Totally legal here where I live and considered self defense. So dancing around probably not a good idea if weapons are involved.

Second your perception of Wing Chun using the hands to avoid strikes may jive with the countless bad youtube videos you may have seen . But that's not the way WC operates. At least not the way I've learned it from two different Sifu's. That's chasing hands and bad Wing Chun or fighting in general. Wing Chun angles and has footwork just like every other decent stand up fighting method. The static WC you see on YouTube is mostly lack of fighting experience and bad training.

 

[Reeksta]

MMA-based styles also have self defense applications. However, they can turn off that aspect and switch to competitive/sport mode and execute their techniques with relative ease.

Why can't Wing Chun?

I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you

 

[Jake104]

I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you

I think that's his goal.

 

[drop bear]

There are wing chun concept that are used in mma. And there are concepts that are not.

so i don't know.

there are very few opportunities for grass roots wing chun guys to cut their teeth in tough competition. If you want to fight people you pretty much have to box, kickbox,wrestle.bjj,mma.

 

[Transk53]

Why can't Wing Chun?

Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.

 

[Transk53]

There are wing chun concept that are used in mma. And there are concepts that are not.

so i don't know.

there are very few opportunities for grass roots wing chun guys to cut their teeth in tough competition. If you want to fight people you pretty much have to box, kickbox,wrestle.bjj,mma.

Agree. It is what it is because that is the way it is.

 

[Tez3]

As it's now turned to a bash the style thread because ' MMA is the only one which works for everything' I'm off. Too much deja vu isn't good for one!

 

[Mephisto]

Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.

I curious why you think this is so? It's an art of punches and kicks. Why can't it be used to fight another skilled person with punches and kick? It makes no sense. I hope eventually someone with a wc and grappling base make it in mma, than all those used the excuse that it's not for competition will be surprised to learn that it is applicapable if you have the right training and attruibtes.

 

[Hanzou]

I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you

I recognize you did. However your answer doesn't work because there are styles with self defense application being used effectively in MMA and competitive sport. There's no reason an exponent cannot "turn off" the self defense mindset when engaged in a non-life threatening situation.

 

[Mephisto]

Where do I start? First, I study in a solid FMA that has a "boxing approach". From what I have learned and believe is that distances and angles are very important when dealing with a weapon. But once engaged evasion or the in and out approach will probably get you killed. If you pull a stick or knife on me you better commit. If not and you give me the chance. I pull my other weapon a 45acp and you're dead. Totally legal here where I live and considered self defense. So dancing around probably not a good idea if weapons are involved.

Second your perception of Wing Chun using the hands to avoid strikes may jive with the countless bad youtube videos you may have seen . But that's not the way WC operates. At least not the way I've learned it from two different Sifu's. That's chasing hands and bad Wing Chun or fighting in general. Wing Chun angles and has footwork just like every other decent stand up fighting method. The static WC you see on YouTube is mostly lack of fighting experience and bad training.

Hmmm where do I start? First I'm not going to pull a stick or knife on you, this is just an Internet discussion don't worry. Also the idea of a weapons duel where you have time to draw a gun is not realistic. The whole idea of a weapons duel in general isn't very realistic in most modern societies but we still train it. The in and out approach with a weapon is a wise and valid approach. You move in to kill, if the opponents defends or counters you move out angle and enter again. It's standarn boxing and if you train in a solid FMA that draws from boxing you probably do it. You can have the classical "one punch one kill" mentality but reality is quite different and you must react accordingly. I'm not talking about dancing with a weapon although you see a fair amount of that in a lot of FMA sparring which may be a valid approach as well but it's not my approach. Evasion is a valuable strategy. My point is you said boxing is not good against unarmed opponent and presented wc as a better alternative. But in you admission your FMA uses a boxing approach as do many FMA systems, so perhaps you are wrong on this one. I will add that there is quite a bit of trapping in FMA so wc may have a place there but you need a strong evasive game and in and out game to pull it off. I use trapping a lot to enter and get a solid shot but I pick and choose where to apply it, I don't try to trap every strike weapon or not.

 

[Tez3]

Nowt wrong with the styles, look to the fighter.

 

[Reeksta]

I recognize you did. However your answer doesn't work because there are styles with self defense application being used effectively in MMA and competitive sport. There's no reason an exponent cannot "turn off" the self defense mindset when engaged in a non-life threatening situation.

My statement wasn't about whether other arts have self defence applications though was it? It was about the fact that certain arts train specifically for a 1:1 encounter with an unarmed opponent

 

[Hanzou]

My statement wasn't about whether other arts have self defence applications though was it? It was about the fact that certain arts train specifically for a 1:1 encounter with an unarmed opponent

So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?