How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Jake104]

Yes, I think heads in any geographical location or culture are begging to be kicked. Haha

You know this is a fun thread. Much better than the TKD vs Wing Chun thread. There aren't many Sifu's I respect without ever meeting them. But Hawkins Cheung is one. I really like him. Among others of course and not just limited to WC. Kyuzo Mifune would be another just off top of my head.

 

[Mephisto]

What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States may be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art

MMA may have not done much for TMA because a lot of tma is counter to evolution. But as a whole mma has shown the value of being able to fight at all ranges. Grapplers need a striking component to their game and vise versa. We have also seen a lot of the bs in martial arts exposed in some manner. We saw all kinds of arts in the first UFCs and now we see a lot less variety. As for tkd in the us it's not held in the highest regard, I do think it has potential. But when you market an art toward everyone you have to lower your expectations.

 

[Hanzou]

I finally agree with you! But are you saying Ground fighting is only good in a controlled environment and not if you are alone? See, are we arguing cause there is a point or just for the point of arguing?

No, I'm saying you can avoid being outnumbered by Traveling in packs.

If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.

 

[Jake104]

No, I'm saying you can avoid being outnumbered by Traveling in packs.

If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.

Yeah but some things can't be avoided. That fight I mentioned early. Well, I thought it was one on one. But to be 100% honest I deserved it. I was young 18-19 and thought I had something to prove. I learned a hard lesson that day. My girlfriend now wife was there. Thank god they didn't hurt her.

 

[Hanzou]

The thing with wanting to spar against other styles is not that it tests karate but that it tests you. Your karate style can be absolutely spot on but are you? Are you confident in your abilities? It's nothing to do with the style but a journey to test yourself, your style can produce world champion full contact fighters but are you up to it? Now that's why people want to 'pressure test' their style, at least that's what they call it, in reality, they are testing themselves, measuring themselves against others.

Tez, if that were true why are people learning MMA to fight in MMA bouts, or choose only a select few styles to learn to enter MMA?

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah but some things can't be avoided. That fight I mentioned early. Well, I thought it was one on one. But to be 100% honest I deserved it. I was young 18-19 and thought I had something to prove. I learned a hard lesson that day. My girlfriend now wife was there. Thank god they didn't hurt her.

Well that's the difference between wrestling and Bjj. If you knew a little Jiujitsu you could have avoided committing your entire body to the grapple.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, if that were true why are people learning MMA to fight in MMA bouts, or choose only a select few styles to learn to enter MMA?

because it's a bloody good way to test your skills, nerve and bravery..... and get paid at the same time or at very least a ticket deal and expenses, we are in a recession after all. It costs money to enter other competitions.

I would say that in the UK and Europe it isn't just a few select styles, the ones people are training in here are quite mixed. As I said before we have a lot of TKD people in MMA, as well as karate, there's a fair selection of styles going on in MMA here. No shin kickers so far though ( yes that's a real sport here) Even CMA, ie Sami Berik.

 

[Jake104]

Well that's the difference between wrestling and Bjj. If you knew a little Jiujitsu you could have avoided committing your entire body to the grapple.

Yeah but I was winning. So I was committed to the win. Wasn't aware of my surroundings till it was to late.. Nobody stopped it by the way. No cops, Good Samaritan. Basically I got beat til they stopped. That's my point, your "should of did this or that" is not realistic. Something's in life are going to be beyond your control.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah but I was winning. So I was committed to the win. Wasn't aware of my surroundings till it was to late.. Nobody stopped it by the way. No cops, Good Samaritan. Basically I got beat til they stopped. That's my point, your "should of did this or that" is not realistic. Something's in life are going to be beyond your control.

Absolutely. Several years ago we had two soldiers dragged out of their car in Northern Ireland and beaten to death by a crowd, no amount of training in anything would have saved them sadly. We had an off duty police officer killed the same way this week in Liverpool and two injured, nothing could help them either and it's lucky three aren't dead. As you say, some things in life are going to be out of your control whatever skills you have.

 

[Jake104]

Absolutely. Several years ago we had two soldiers dragged out of their car in Northern Ireland and beaten to death by a crowd, no amount of training in anything would have saved them sadly. We had an off duty police officer killed the same way this week in Liverpool and two injured, nothing could help them either and it's lucky three aren't dead. As you say, some things in life are going to be out of your control whatever skills you have.

Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on deaf ears. Lol.

 

[Jake104]

Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on def ears. Lol.

All I can say is, all this chatter on topic or not, is good for Hawkins Cheung. I have always thought he is a underrated IP Man direct student that deserves some recognition.

 

[ballen0351]

If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.

Or get your head bashed in

 

[Hanzou]

because it's a bloody good way to test your skills, nerve and bravery..... and get paid at the same time or at very least a ticket deal and expenses, we are in a recession after all. It costs money to enter other competitions.

Oh sure. My point was more to the line about testing yourself and not the style. If that was the case, why is there still only 3-4 essential styles in MMA after almost 20 years? It would seem to me that if were testing ourselves and not the styles, we'd see far more variety than what we're seeing. Like you said, these people are trying to get paid, so they have an insentive on seeking out the most effective MA training possible.

I would say that in the UK and Europe it isn't just a few select styles, the ones people are training in here are quite mixed. As I said before we have a lot of TKD people in MMA, as well as karate, there's a fair selection of styles going on in MMA here. No shin kickers so far though ( yes that's a real sport here) Even CMA, ie Sami Berik.

Again fair point, but none of those guys are setting foot in the ring without extensive training in the main styles of MMA. You may see the slow emergence of alternate ways to beat someone down. For example, high kicks, Judo throws, and standing joint locks are slowly inching their way into MMA. However, the people pushing those boundaries have a solid foundation in the core MMA styles first.

Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.

 

[Tez3]

Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on def ears. Lol.

It gets better lol, my youngest is 29, my oldest 38 and are a pleasure to chat and be with now. As you can tell I've been around a long time in martial arts and life probably why I sound like the Jewish mother I am roflmao. I am a mother of course I know best!

 

[ballen0351]

Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.

Your a disrespectful .................

 

[Tez3]

Oh sure. My point was more to the line about testing yourself and not the style. If that was the case, why is there still only 3-4 essential styles in MMA after almost 20 years? It would seem to me that if were testing ourselves and not the styles, we'd see far more variety than what we're seeing. Like you said, these people are trying to get paid, so they have an insentive on seeking out the most effective MA training possible.



Again fair point, but none of those guys are setting foot in the ring without extensive training in the main styles of MMA. You may see the slow emergence of alternate ways to beat someone down. For example, high kicks, Judo throws, and standing joint locks are slowly inching their way into MMA. However, the people pushing those boundaries have a solid foundation in the core MMA styles first.

Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.

You don't know Sami like I do, he has a record of taking fights on an hours notice, not wise but his record isn't a reflection of his abilities. he would go to a show as a spectator and bring his kit, if a fighter didn't turn up he'd fight, too many catch weight contest too but he wanted to fight to see if he could, not necessarily win but just fight.

You are talking about MMA in the States, I'm talking about MMA in the rest of the world lol. Testing ourselves has nothing to do with wanting to going into MMA, it can be done perfectly well within your own style. You know a certain punch works, you've seen others KO someone with it but does your punch work when you do it? that's the question and it can be answered perfectly well outside MMA which isn't hugely popular here, a rising sport certainly but we don't get crowds coming to fight nights the way they do in the US. Even the UFC didn't get huge crowds here. (On a side note people aren't going to pay over £80 and more for a UFC ticket here, it's extortionate.) we have good Judo, TKD and karate comps here as well as a lot of good boxing so people don't always feel they want to go into MMA.

Oh btw what's your MMA record?

 

[Tez3]

Sami Berik has fought Paul Daly, Dan Hardy, Leigh Remedios, Ross Pearson, Jean Silva, Andre Winner, Sol Gilbert and Jeremy Bailey as well as beating Abdul Mohamed. He's fought Kevin O'Hagen a very well known RBSD instructor here and there is absolutely no shame to losing to people of that calibre.

 

[Transk53]

@Hanzou. Did tell ya, you have taken it lower.

 

[Reeksta]

It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations

 

[Hanzou]

MMA may have not done much for TMA because a lot of tma is counter to evolution. But as a whole mma has shown the value of being able to fight at all ranges. Grapplers need a striking component to their game and vise versa. We have also seen a lot of the bs in martial arts exposed in some manner. We saw all kinds of arts in the first UFCs and now we see a lot less variety. As for tkd in the us it's not held in the highest regard, I do think it has potential. But when you market an art toward everyone you have to lower your expectations.

This is a good point. When I first started Bjj in 2006 Nogi was pretty rare in many schools. Now Nogi is everywhere. Why? Because its a response to MMA, Wrestling, and competitive Grappling. In response to Barnett beating Lister, many Bjj schools are relearning Catch wrestling techniques. This is all merely an example of an evolving, adapting art. Many TMAs haven't changed their methods in decades, if not centuries.