How to introduce unorthodox study into a commercialized dojo, as a student?

[isshinryuronin]

When doing basic FMA partner drills with knives, it was insisted that I focus on cutting. My background is primarily contemporary street-focused systems, and so I know that in most situations, an average knife is not hefty or sharp enough to preform a fight-ending slice.

A few points to address here.

The average cheap fighting knife is capable of cutting the opponent, especially on body parts backed by bone or tendon.

It is difficult to stab a slender moving arm. Stabs are best against the body.

The body is protected by the arms, at the end of which is a weapon. Accordingly, this would be the primary target.

Cutting the arms reduces their ability to wield the weapon.

The cut is seldom fight-ending (except for the neck). A fluid series of cuts (and accompanying hand checks to the arm) allow one to work their way in for a fight-ending stab. It's all set up by the cuts.

IMO the instructor is completely correct on insisting to focus on cutting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's how I was able to introduce new things at the school zi attended. I first learn what they taught me. Then I got good at applying what they taught me. Gain that ability and respect along those lines and maybe they will ask for your input for things outside of the system.

I think you may be jumping the ahead of yourself. If you were introduced to knife fighting at the school then it's probably for a reason or a future plan that the instructor has for you. So I would just focus on what he's teaching.

Sometimes eagerness to teach = I don't want to learn what you are teaching me. This will almost be seen as something negative.

 

[skribs]

His dismissal of my concern, made me worried he didn’t really understand the theory behind what he was teaching—only the drills and techniques passed on to him.

But I’m not quick to judge just on that.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're wrong.

It is very possible that you are misguided in your assumptions of why he's wrong.

 

[drop bear]

Janich is probably the most famous advocate of mechanical cutting.
And is the wharncliffe guy.

(That demo at the start is super cringe)

Shivworks advocates positional Dominance.

And I haven't looked in to the others.

Knives mostly don't end a fight quickly stabbing or slashing. and so learning to wrestle to fight from a position they can't fight back. Or learning to duel and basically run away. Or learning to hit people so hard they fall unconscious are probably your most important foundational exercises.

Luckily I wrestle, move and hit in MMA. So most of that stuff is covered for me.

Otherwise try to start a concepts group before class to practice your youtube moves. Like we do with BJJ.

If you want to be captain stabs. The principles mostly don't change in terms of creating an opportunity to attack without being countered. (Exept some reinforced stabs like body weight. And some cool pulling your knife out tricks.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

A few points to address here.

The average cheap fighting knife is capable of cutting the opponent, especially on body parts backed by bone or tendon.

It is difficult to stab a slender moving arm. Stabs are best against the body.

The body is protected by the arms, at the end of which is a weapon. Accordingly, this would be the primary target.

Cutting the arms reduces their ability to wield the weapon.

The cut is seldom fight-ending (except for the neck). A fluid series of cuts (and accompanying hand checks to the arm) allow one to work their way in for a fight-ending stab. It's all set up by the cuts.

IMO the instructor is completely correct on insisting to focus on cutting.

In principle, nothing you’ve said is wrong here. However, the way you approach limbs with a fruit knife versus a machete is going to change.

The tissue around the neck is kinda thick. I’m not aware of anyone consistently dying from having their throat literally slit?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Here's how I was able to introduce new things at the school zi attended. I first learn what they taught me. Then I got good at applying what they taught me. Gain that ability and respect along those lines and maybe they will ask for your input for things outside of the system.

I think you may be jumping the ahead of yourself. If you were introduced to knife fighting at the school then it's probably for a reason or a future plan that the instructor has for you. So I would just focus on what he's teaching.

Sometimes eagerness to teach = I don't want to learn what you are teaching me. This will almost be seen as something negative.

Been studying knife since 2019. This thought has crossed my mind as well, earn their respect before opening my mouth fully. I told them my training background, and I don’t think they had any clue what I was talking about.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're wrong.

It is very possible that you are misguided in your assumptions of why he's wrong.

You‘re not inherently wrong here. However, I didn’t say there was a disagreement. I said there was a dismissal.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Janich is probably the most famous advocate of mechanical cutting.
And is the wharncliffe guy.

(That demo at the start is super cringe)

Shivworks advocates positional Dominance.

And I haven't looked in to the others.

Knives mostly don't end a fight quickly stabbing or slashing. and so learning to wrestle to fight from a position they can't fight back. Or learning to duel and basically run away. Or learning to hit people so hard they fall unconscious are probably your most important foundational exercises.

Luckily I wrestle, move and hit in MMA. So most of that stuff is covered for me.

Otherwise try to start a concepts group before class to practice your youtube moves. Like we do with BJJ.

If you want to be captain stabs. The principles mostly don't change in terms of creating an opportunity to attack without being countered. (Exept some reinforced stabs like body weight. And some cool pulling your knife out tricks.

The way I learned it, the end-goal isn’t specifically stabbing, but using the knife almost like a grappling hook to climb around the body, in order to get away. The face, neck, lung, brachials, femorals, kidneys, are just pragmatic places to put the knife, as you “pull“ yourself out.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Janich is probably the most famous advocate of mechanical cutting.
And is the wharncliffe guy.

(That demo at the start is super cringe)

Shivworks advocates positional Dominance.

And I haven't looked in to the others.

Knives mostly don't end a fight quickly stabbing or slashing. and so learning to wrestle to fight from a position they can't fight back. Or learning to duel and basically run away. Or learning to hit people so hard they fall unconscious are probably your most important foundational exercises.

Luckily I wrestle, move and hit in MMA. So most of that stuff is covered for me.

Otherwise try to start a concepts group before class to practice your youtube moves. Like we do with BJJ.

If you want to be captain stabs. The principles mostly don't change in terms of creating an opportunity to attack without being countered. (Exept some reinforced stabs like body weight. And some cool pulling your knife out tricks.

On a further note, it would be an absolute blessing to find an MMA crowd, with a catch wrestling curriculum, that’s down to mix in RBSD, do homemade shiv works evolutions, some firearms manipulation.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy...

Be a student.

Okay, the longer version...

I attend a self-defense dojo ran by an instructor certified in an international Krav Maga Brand, and another international brand, which is essentially FMA boxing, body manipulation, and various weapons under a different name.

And how long have you been there? Why did you go there in the first place? I saw the references to convenience... and, bluntly, all that strikes me as is a sense of entitlement (I want what I want, where I can feel good about doing what I do, right on my doorstep, and everyone should cater to me and make my life easier). If that's the case, grow up.

Overall, the instruction is good. They know the techniques, the instructors know why the techniques are done, along with some other martial arts knowledge.

So... they know what they're doing, and why... okay...

However, I’m concerned no one understands the greater theory behind what they’re doing, except that “there are no rules in a street fight.” When talking to older more experienced students, I get the impression that they’d never heard of FMA until attending these classes.

So... they don't know what they're doing, or why... or where it comes from... okay...

Oh, and the whole "there are no rules in a street fight" thing? Yeah... that's simplistic idiocy, honestly. Firstly, there are always rules, you just may not be aware of them. Secondly, there's no such thing as a "street fight". So anyone claiming to teach "self defence" that spouts such foolishness... that's what would have me walk out the door... and, if that's from you as well, well... yeah...

When doing basic FMA partner drills with knives, it was insisted that I focus on cutting.

So you were given the focus of the drill, but still think that you know better (in terms of the aims and reasons for the drill)? Shut up and be a student.

My background is primarily contemporary street-focused systems,

Firstly, what on earth are those? I haven't seen anything that would describe itself thusly without also being completely fantasy based over-reacting, fear-mongering foolishness with no actual grasp of the realities of the world. Secondly, so you trained something else, and are now at a primarily Krav Maga school that incorporates something somewhat similar to what you did before? Okay... shut up and be a student.

and so I know that in most situations, an average knife is not hefty or sharp enough to preform a fight-ending slice.

You know that? How do you know that? What do you classify as "an average knife"? What clothing are you going against? What kind of threats? What circumstances resulted in you getting into the (theoretical) knife conflict in the first place? Do you live in the Philippines? How do you classify "fight ending"? Have you considered that you don't actually know what you think you do? Or that there are other perspectives that also hold validity? You know how you can figure it out? Shut up and be a student.

You get a cut if it‘s available, but you’re really just using the knife to pry your way into a stab.

Are you? Well, that's automatically going for a potentially lethal response... is that always the case, do you think? Do you know how long it takes for people to die or be stopped by a thrust (or stab)? Do you know how precise such an action needs to be to genuinely "end" a fight? You know who might have a different aim for the usage of knives (or potentially even have an aim for the training to be to NOT get into such an idiotic position where that's the belief)? Your new teachers. You know how to find out? Shut up and be a student.

I know enough about FMA, to realize that the slicing moves derive from an assumption of bludgeons and heavy field blades.

Do you? Is that what the "slicing actions" are for? Bludgeons? You... er, do know what the verb "to bludgeon" means, yeah? You're also aware that there are a number of different FMA systems that deal with different styles and types of blades? You know how to get more awareness, yeah? Shut up and be a student.

I was told not to worry about it, and just do the drill as instructed.

Yeah. Shut up and be a student.

I’ve had the opportunity to study Shiv Works, prison fighting, revolver work, anti-abduction stuff, WW2 combatives, and then some.

Great, and? That's not what you're doing there (and, frankly, I worry about the psychology of someone who seeks out such fear-based training and education... I mean... are you working with inner-city gangs? Working in corrections? Just regular paranoid?). Shut up and be a student.

Ideally, I’d like to have a study group going.

So... you want to come into a new school, tell them you know more than them, then take their students to start your own group? Can you hear how that sounds? If you have enough training to start a school, go for it. If not, and you don't have that level of insight and qualifications, guess what? Shut up and be a student.

I feel like it would be completely new to them.

Your perspective is exactly that... your perspective. It's borne from your personal experience and training choices, but it's not the only one, and certainly not the only valid one. Maybe start from the perspective that their approach is completely new to you, and... Shut up and be a student.

I think they understand and respect that I’ve had previous, diverse training.

Look, a peek behind the curtain here... I have never been been particularly impressed or overly concerned with the previous training of any student. At best, it can give some idea of what frame of reference they may have, but in the majority of cases, it just means I have to work through some pre-programming and break through or past it. Those that can't put it aside and learn, leave. Either of their own accord, or they are simply invited to not return. So... Shut up and be a student.

Yet, I suspect the students and instructors are, for now, more interested in my assimilation than my input.

Of course they are. You're joining their class. It's not your class. So... Shut up and be a student.

But I don’t know if that’s the general mentality, or if I simply need to bridge the communication gap.

The communication gap is on your side. You're there to learn what they're offering, not to bring your own (potentially limited) ideas and ego to show them the "truth" of what they're doing. Shut up and be a student.

I have a good relationship with all the instructors.

Do you? Again, if this was my class, and you couldn't get past this, I wouldn't be your teacher for long... so... to keep this "good relationship"... you know what to do? Shut up and be a student.

Does anyone think I can convince them?

You're not in a position to. You're a student. It's their class. They get to decide what's important, what's not, what's of value, what's not, how things are best addressed, and so on. Not only can't you, you have no right to even think you should. Shut up and be a student.

If so, how should I approach the head instructor?

By apologising, and saying you're going to shut up and be a student.

I didn’t realize the idea of questioning an instructor was so controversial.

It's not. But that's not what you're doing. You're telling them you have a better way of doing their class, and you know more about what's important and what isn't. You're not questioning them, you're lecturing them. Shut up and be a student.

“Convince” interest in an area of study, that is in alignment with what they teach, which is supposed to be RSBD.

It's not RBSD. It's a form of combatives with a martial arts flavour, catering to a para-military image and survivalist bent. It's not RBSD... that's more about understanding the legal and social context.

With all due respect, I don’t think you know as much about knives as you think you do.

Absolutely seconded.

Been studying knife since 2019.

Aw, cute. 93 for me. With training in a couple of arts (unarmed) before that. And a lot over the last 30+ years from a range of cultures, with a whole mess of weapons. Buka a lot longer, as well, so you know. Same with quite a few people that have been answering you the same way I am.

This thought has crossed my mind as well, earn their respect before opening my mouth fully.

Remove the last word there. You may find that, by the time you do, you don't need to at all.

I told them my training background, and I don’t think they had any clue what I was talking about.

Or just weren't impressed (I'm not), or didn't care. You trained in other things earlier? Okay, great. But you're here to learn what we do. So.................

Shut up and be a student.

Or leave if you can't.

 

[drop bear]

On a further note, it would be an absolute blessing to find an MMA crowd, with a catch wrestling curriculum, that’s down to mix in RBSD, do homemade shiv works evolutions, some firearms manipulation.

Sheepdog response.

Tim kennedy

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Woooow….I did not expect the vitriol and rage this thread has elicited. I don’t know if I made a grievous error in wording, or if it’s my mistake expecting a level-headed discussion on the internet.

Let’s take a step back here.

Oh boy...

Be a student.

Okay, the longer version...



And how long have you been there? Why did you go there in the first place? I saw the references to convenience... and, bluntly, all that strikes me as is a sense of entitlement (I want what I want, where I can feel good about doing what I do, right on my doorstep, and everyone should cater to me and make my life easier). If that's the case, grow up.

In simple terms, when I started going, it seemed to be the best place of limited options.

So... they know what they're doing, and why... okay...



So... they don't know what they're doing, or why... or where it comes from... okay...

Oh, and the whole "there are no rules in a street fight" thing? Yeah... that's simplistic idiocy, honestly. Firstly, there are always rules, you just may not be aware of them. Secondly, there's no such thing as a "street fight". So anyone claiming to teach "self defence" that spouts such foolishness... that's what would have me walk out the door... and, if that's from you as well, well... yeah...

I agree with you.

So you were given the focus of the drill, but still think that you know better (in terms of the aims and reasons for the drill)? Shut up and be a student.



Firstly, what on earth are those? I haven't seen anything that would describe itself thusly without also being completely fantasy based over-reacting, fear-mongering foolishness with no actual grasp of the realities of the world. Secondly, so you trained something else, and are now at a primarily Krav Maga school that incorporates something somewhat similar to what you did before? Okay... shut up and be a student.



You know that? How do you know that? What do you classify as "an average knife"? What clothing are you going against? What kind of threats? What circumstances resulted in you getting into the (theoretical) knife conflict in the first place? Do you live in the Philippines? How do you classify "fight ending"? Have you considered that you don't actually know what you think you do? Or that there are other perspectives that also hold validity? You know how you can figure it out? Shut up and be a student.

“Average knife”—as in about 3 inches, varying sharpness. I may very well have misused the word “average.”

Are you? Well, that's automatically going for a potentially lethal response... is that always the case, do you think? Do you know how long it takes for people to die or be stopped by a thrust (or stab)? Do you know how precise such an action needs to be to genuinely "end" a fight? You know who might have a different aim for the usage of knives (or potentially even have an aim for the training to be to NOT get into such an idiotic position where that's the belief)? Your new teachers. You know how to find out? Shut up and be a student.

I’m not aware of any legal jurisdictions that don’t consider a knife a lethal force weapon. If, for example, you hit the femoral, left ventricle, or aorta, they’re not going to live very long. Ultimately though, the point of stabbing is to create distance for an escape, and your anatomical targets will vary in that situation.

Do you? Is that what the "slicing actions" are for? Bludgeons? You... er, do know what the verb "to bludgeon" means, yeah? You're also aware that there are a number of different FMA systems that deal with different styles and types of blades? You know how to get more awareness, yeah? Shut up and be a student.

Yes. I’m aware there are different systems and blades.

Yeah. Shut up and be a student.



Great, and? That's not what you're doing there (and, frankly, I worry about the psychology of someone who seeks out such fear-based training and education... I mean... are you working with inner-city gangs? Working in corrections? Just regular paranoid?). Shut up and be a student.

Fear-based? I just prefer a more unified and comprehensive theory:

Fighting Hardware
—Grappling
—Striking
—Clinch
—Blundgeon
—Flexible weapons
—Long blade
—Short blade
—Shiv

1. Firearms
   1. Manipulation
   2. Movement in the open
   3. Movement in a structure

—Weapons access
—Weapons prepping
—Weapons of opportunity
—Preemption
—Use of force continuum

Situational Awareness
—Human Behavioral Pattern Recognition and Analysis (AKA Left of Bang)
—Personal awareness (not drawing attention to yourself)
—3rd party awareness

1. Managing unknown contacts
2. Deescalation

—Cultural awareness
—Legal awareness
—Physical security vulnerabilities

1. Non-destructive entry
2. Destructive entry
3. Covert entry
4. Choke points

They seem exclusively focused, via the FMA and Krav Maga, on:
—Grappling
—Striking
—Clinch
—Blundgeon
—Long blade
—Short blade

You're not in a position to. You're a student. It's their class. They get to decide what's important, what's not, what's of value, what's not, how things are best addressed, and so on. Not only can't you, you have no right to even think you should. Shut up and be a student.

I don’t know if my concerns are warranted or not. Maybe they just have a different training mentality than what I’m used to. One of the instructors once told me, they kind of limit what they teach about fighting and violence, to avoid frightening fresh students.

I come from an environment where the instructors openly addressed comments and concerns from the students, and they were knowledgeable enough to give satisfactory responses. Students in turn would have their study groups during open gym.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Sheepdog response.

Tim kennedy

I thought you didn’t like Tim Kennedy. Had a change of heart?

 

[frank raud]

I come from an environment where the instructors openly addressed comments and concerns from the students, and they were knowledgeable enough to give satisfactory responses. Students in turn would have their study groups during open gym.

So, you have actually attended classes previously? Based on all your previous threads, you were self learning, looking for video downloads and remote learning opportunities. Has that all changed? Have you actually done a Shivworks course, and if so, which one? You're claiming to potentially know more than your instructor, that's impressive considering how little you knew a short time ago.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

So, you have actually attended classes previously? Based on all your previous threads, you were self learning, looking for video downloads and remote learning opportunities. Has that all changed? Have you actually done a Shivworks course, and if so, which one? You're claiming to potentially know more than your instructor, that's impressive considering how little you knew a short time ago.

I understand where you’re coming from. Yes, I have. I’ve used remote and in-person learning combined, practicing stuff with other students and willing instructors. I try to “read ahead” if you will. I’ve since changed locations, and it’s difficult to have something consistent, that’s a similar training environment.

 

[Badhabits]

Isn't the OP's fundamental point about the average carry knife not having the heft for cutting flawed? I mean, my little folding Benchmade with it's tanto style blade is light as feather, sure you're not going to hack or chop bludgeon style with it. But it'll slice you to ribbons. I'm not carrying my big ole heavy kukri knife around.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Isn't the OP's fundamental point about the average carry knife not having the heft for cutting flawed? I mean, my little folding Benchmade with it's tanto style blade is light as feather, sure you're not going to hack or chop bludgeon style with it. But it'll slice you to ribbons. I'm not carrying my big ole heavy kukri knife around.

Well, by cutting, I’m referring to hacking. There’s opening up someone’s arm, and then there’s the arm literally hanging by the tissue.

It occurs to me, that if you’re using techniques correctly, it’ll work with a benchmade or a filed-down piece of scrap metal. Difference is, the benchmade will get consistent slices on the way.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

@hoshin1600 @skribs @MuayJitsu @Buka @gyoja @frank raud @Badhabits @Chris Parker

Initially, I was surprised and off-put by how intense this got. Now though, I’m grateful for the criticism. It’s made me more aware of how I might offend instructors. I will modify my approach accordingly, avoid unintentionally coming off as arrogant or egotistical. Thank you all.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I attend a self-defense dojo ran by an instructor certified in an international Krav Maga Brand, and another international brand, which is essentially FMA boxing, body manipulation, and various weapons under a different name.

Overall, the instruction is good. They know the techniques, the instructors know why the techniques are done, along with some other martial arts knowledge. However, I’m concerned no one understands the greater theory behind what they’re doing, except that “there are no rules in a street fight.” When talking to older more experienced students, I get the impression that they’d never heard of FMA until attending these classes.

When doing basic FMA partner drills with knives, it was insisted that I focus on cutting. My background is primarily contemporary street-focused systems, and so I know that in most situations, an average knife is not hefty or sharp enough to preform a fight-ending slice. You get a cut if it‘s available, but you’re really just using the knife to pry your way into a stab. I know enough about FMA, to realize that the slicing moves derive from an assumption of bludgeons and heavy field blades. I was told not to worry about it, and just do the drill as instructed.

I’ve had the opportunity to study Shiv Works, prison fighting, revolver work, anti-abduction stuff, WW2 combatives, and then some. Ideally, I’d like to have a study group going. I feel like it would be completely new to them. I think they understand and respect that I’ve had previous, diverse training. Yet, I suspect the students and instructors are, for now, more interested in my assimilation than my input. But I don’t know if that’s the general mentality, or if I simply need to bridge the communication gap. I have a good relationship with all the instructors.

Does anyone think I can convince them? If so, how should I approach the head instructor?

I'm honestly just confused about what your issue is here.

You acknowledge that slicing drills are the basics in FMA. You acknowledge that it makes sense to learn those. When you were asked to do those drills, that you acknowledge are part of the art and should be learned first, you started talking about stabbing instead of doing the drill?

I can't say that school, but FMA in general does teach stabbing as well. What you did sounds like going to a boxing gym, learning how to jab and complaining that it's not an uppercut, then thinking you need to start a study group to teach them different ways to use their fists. If you know that you were specifically learning drills that involve cutting, there's no need to focus on unrelated stuff.

For the record, I think most instructors would tell you just to focus on the drill you're learning, in this situation.

 

[drop bear]

I thought you didn’t like Tim Kennedy. Had a change of heart?

No that's Aikido I don't like.