For those of you who want to learn how to fight outside of sport:

[GreenieMeanie]

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't understand his point.

We hashed that all out in the first page.

 

[Buka]

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't understand his point.

Good to see you on the boards again, my friend. Hope all is well with you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As a Marine MP you were likely in confrontations with spirited, toughened, and combat trained people. How much did (or would have) your karate training come into play (aside from your advanced MP CQC)?

That's a very good question. In retrospect, there are some aspects of karate training that would have helped me to develop power when needed. For example, a common strike was a direct punch with the end of my nightstick from the speed ring on my belt directly to the attacker's abdomen. It's a fearsome strike, hard to see coming and hard to defend. However, I did not have the knowledge of grounding myself, breath control, and hip movement to deliver massive power with that strike - I used arm muscle primarily. It worked, but could have worked better.

Balance points were something I understood only superficially. Knowing then what I know now would have enabled me to direct the person to the ground with much less effort on my part. Using the head to direct the body (where the head goes, the body follows), knees and hips, in particular. I worked more with tripping or throwing styles that I was taught as an MP. Worked, but again, could have worked better, looking back.

I am certain that I would have benefited from grappling skills in that tableau, because quite often I ended up on the ground with someone I was trying to apprehend.

Tuite skills; I had some, and many of them are used in Isshinryu although of course I did not know that at the time. Some were taught to us by one of our Japanese Security Guards, Angi Uezu, whom some know of here. But I could have benefited with more knowledge of tuite as well as, again, the body mechanics behind them.

I realize now that much of what I've learned on the patch to 3rd degree black belt in Isshinryu would have helped me tremendously back when I was a young Marine MP. Much less struggle, much less need to do serious damage to Marines I was trying to apprehend.

In fact, that's a big part of why I love Isshinryu so much now. As my physical abilities decline, I lose muscle mass and stamina. Yet, I retain confidence that what I've absorbed will protect me; I don't need to be a hulking muscle monster to defend myself; I don't need to be fast. I just need to understand body mechanics and be able to root myself and apply them. That, I can more-or-less do well.

 

[drop bear]

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't understand his point.

I think there is this idea that there is a bunch of specific skills that are needed to fight outside of quality fight training.

So say you fight multiples differently to fighting one guy. And you would need specialist training.

I also don't think it is correct for the most part.

Yeah. There are definitely concepts that make your life easier on the streetz. (Kasegetami over side control is great if you don't want your knees skinned up)

(Grappling with a focus on grip fighting and hand control will make it harder for people to punch you or get weapons.)

The issue is it is such a mine field of urban legends and not at all well thought out strategies. That you are almost always better off doing what you are good at. Rather than doing these street specific tricks.

That list for example contains some good guys and some fairly questionable ones all lumped together with no way of knowing which is which.

And no real vehicle to test it before you need to use it.

And that is a really inefficient and super risky way of developing a tool set for self defence.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't understand his point.

We can all agree that the systems people have done for MMA over the years, are tried and proven in the ring, and their lineage is systems that were once taught for combat before firearms became implemented (this of course gets a little complicated culture to culture at a point in history, but you get the idea).

The fighting mechanics you learn in these systems apply broadly, and can be analogous to sort of your fighting operating system.

However--there are limitations to it. Your operating system is a platform, unequipped to preform some tasks by itself. There are certain things you're not gonna learn from the MMA competitive curriculum (because the only instance you're gonna scientifically test them, is out in the street, or the field), that others have personally experienced and devoted their career to codifying.

The list includes those instructors and their programs, and what their specialties are.

I'm not saying that this is a complete list, that they are the best, or that one HAS to learn from them--but they ARE learning resources for particular things, with references, a number of whom have trained together, and not some randos that decided to open up a Krav Maga school down the street.

Fairbarn was a street cop in Asia, dedicated his life to learning what was useful in Asian MA, and was brought in to teach WWII commandos and spies the basics of how to fight. As @frank raud mentioned, Fairbarn Protocol is a good resource for this.

Carl Cestari was also a street cop, who dedicated his life similarly and learned from the surviving members of the WWII combatives program.

Kelly McCann is a Fairbarn and Applegate influenced instructor, who served in SOF and has been there, done that.

Lee Morrison is a life-long martial artist, who spent time in gangs and was involved in quite a few street altercations, and he and McCann have trained together.

Craig Douglas, one of the Shiv Works collective, was an undercover officer who's "been there, done that." One of his specialties is grappling over weapons in a car.

Libre Knife Fighting was founded by Scott Babb. He's a lifelong martial artist, who's dealt with a variety of knife-related altercations in his life, and developed a system that focuses more on how criminals use the knife. To my knowledge, he has trained with Mexican and Indonesian forces, and his students have helped him evolve the system, bringing back feedback from their real-life experiences on the street and field.

Piper was founded by Nigel Febuary and Llyod de Jongh, and it's the codification of how SA gangs and hoods are known to use knives.

Raul Martinez (Rogue Methods) was an infantryman and undercover cop, similar to Craig Douglas.

Ed Calderon was Mexican SF, who saw a lot of ****. He learned a lot of the people on the list, and has his own life experiences to teach from. His specialty is more situational awareness, travel safety, and counter-abduction.

Another name I should have added, is Brian Halliday, another MMA guy and life-long martial artist, who was in a biker gang and managed to survive an ungodly amount of street fights. He also helped develop Mastro Defense System.

The team at Arcadia Cognetari developed the marine corps Hunter program, which teaches spotting the pre-indicators of violent situations before they happen. Yousef Badou was an instructor for that program.

Given what I've seen on this website, it seems y'all know the rest.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think there is this idea that there is a bunch of specific skills that are needed to fight outside of quality fight training.

So say you fight multiples differently to fighting one guy. And you would need specialist training.

I also don't think it is correct for the most part.

Yeah. There are definitely concepts that make your life easier on the streetz. (Kasegetami over side control is great if you don't want your knees skinned up)

(Grappling with a focus on grip fighting and hand control will make it harder for people to punch you or get weapons.)

The issue is it is such a mine field of urban legends and not at all well thought out strategies. That you are almost always better off doing what you are good at. Rather than doing these street specific tricks.

That list for example contains some good guys and some fairly questionable ones all lumped together with no way of knowing which is which.

And no real vehicle to test it before you need to use it.

And that is a really inefficient and super risky way of developing a tool set for self defence.

I have to agree with you on almost every point you make here. Reflexes based on what you already do are better than some special street technique training. There are some people that have had valuable experience in the street, but every situation is different, so that may or may not be helpful at all. Tricks can get you killed in the street. The only way to find out if stuff works is to go out and do it for real(not a very good idea). All true street fight experiences carry a potentially lethal consequence for all parties involved, aside from legal and moral issues that could arise from that kind of activity. There is rarely such a thing as a clean victory in these things.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We can all agree that the systems people have done for MMA over the years, are tried and proven in the ring, and their lineage is systems that were once taught for combat before firearms became implemented (this of course gets a little complicated culture to culture at a point in history, but you get the idea).

The fighting mechanics you learn in these systems apply broadly, and can be analogous to sort of your fighting operating system.

However--there are limitations to it. Your operating system is a platform, unequipped to preform some tasks by itself. There are certain things you're not gonna learn from the MMA competitive curriculum (because the only instance you're gonna scientifically test them, is out in the street, or the field), that others have personally experienced and devoted their career to codifying.

The list includes those instructors and their programs, and what their specialties are.

I'm not saying that this is a complete list, that they are the best, or that one HAS to learn from them--but they ARE learning resources for particular things, with references, a number of whom have trained together, and not some randos that decided to open up a Krav Maga school down the street.

Fairbarn was a street cop in Asia, dedicated his life to learning what was useful in Asian MA, and was brought in to teach WWII commandos and spies the basics of how to fight. As @frank raud mentioned, Fairbarn Protocol is a good resource for this.

Carl Cestari was also a street cop, who dedicated his life similarly and learned from the surviving members of the WWII combatives program.

Kelly McCann is a Fairbarn and Applegate influenced instructor, who served in SOF and has been there, done that.

Lee Morrison is a life-long martial artist, who spent time in gangs and was involved in quite a few street altercations, and he and McCann have trained together.

Craig Douglas, one of the Shiv Works collective, was an undercover officer who's "been there, done that." One of his specialties is grappling over weapons in a car.

Libre Knife Fighting was founded by Scott Babb. He's a lifelong martial artist, who's dealt with a variety of knife-related altercations in his life, and developed a system that focuses more on how criminals use the knife. To my knowledge, he has trained with Mexican and Indonesian forces, and his students have helped him evolve the system, bringing back feedback from their real-life experiences on the street and field.

Piper was founded by Nigel Febuary and Llyod de Jongh, and it's the codification of how SA gangs and hoods are known to use knives.

Raul Martinez (Rogue Methods) was an infantryman and undercover cop, similar to Craig Douglas.

Ed Calderon was Mexican SF, who saw a lot of ****. He learned a lot of the people on the list, and has his own life experiences to teach from. His specialty is more situational awareness, travel safety, and counter-abduction.

Another name I should have added, is Brian Halliday, another MMA guy and life-long martial artist, who was in a biker gang and managed to survive an ungodly amount of street fights. He also helped develop Mastro Defense System.

The team at Arcadia Cognetari developed the marine corps Hunter program, which teaches spotting the pre-indicators of violent situations before they happen. Yousef Badou was an instructor for that program.

Given what I've seen on this website, it seems y'all know the rest.

SA gangs? What is that?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

SA gangs? What is that?

South Africa

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I have to agree with you on almost every point you make here. Reflexes based on what you already do are better than some special street technique training. There are some people that have had valuable experience in the street, but every situation is different, so that may or may not be helpful at all. Tricks can get you killed in the street. The only way to find out if stuff works is to go out and do it for real(not a very good idea). All true street fight experiences carry a potentially lethal consequence for all parties involved, aside from legal and moral issues that could arise from that kind of activity. There is rarely such a thing as a clean victory in these things.

Legit RBSD doesn’t have “tricks.” They’re literally just applying what’s already in MMA, with some situational modifications. I had to start training in an MMA program awhile back in order to improve my learning curve.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

South Africa

Ohhhh. Thank you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Legit RBSD doesn’t have “tricks.” They’re literally just applying what’s already in MMA, with some situational modifications. I had to start training in an MMA program awhile back in order to improve my learning curve.

I’m not suggesting RBSD is tricks. I was referring to MA gyms that give street fight defense seminars. Not always, but often it’s just not very realistic or informed on the subject. The “ first do this, then do this” isn’t going to cover the dynamics of each unique situation, how could it?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I’m not suggesting RBSD is tricks. I was referring to MA gyms that give street fight defense seminars. Not always, but often it’s just not very realistic or informed on the subject. The “ first do this, then do this” isn’t going to cover the dynamics of each unique situation, how could it?

One of my favorite instructors once said to me "I can show you a variety of ways to deal with something, but it's up to you to figure out what works in the moment, and to take what's given."

This is why I don't go to random MA gym seminars. If I'm gonna drop cash, it's gonna be with someone who has background and references in the business--like this guy:

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of my favorite instructors once said to me "I can show you a variety of ways to deal with something, but it's up to you to figure out what works in the moment, and to take what's given."

This is why I don't go to random MA gym seminars. If I'm gonna drop cash, it's gonna be with someone who has background and references in the business--like this guy:

Out of curiosity, what is the price for these classes?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of my favorite instructors once said to me "I can show you a variety of ways to deal with something, but it's up to you to figure out what works in the moment, and to take what's given."

This is why I don't go to random MA gym seminars. If I'm gonna drop cash, it's gonna be with someone who has background and references in the business--like this guy:

One of my favorite instructors once said to me "I can show you a variety of ways to deal with something, but it's up to you to figure out what works in the moment, and to take what's given."

This is why I don't go to random MA gym seminars. If I'm gonna drop cash, it's gonna be with someone who has background and references in the business--like this guy:

I don’t see anything special or new in this.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I don’t see anything special or new in this.

For some people, it is.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Out of curiosity, what is the price for these classes?

Atlanta, GA: November 5th-6th, 2022 — Ed's Manifesto

This module explores the subject matter of non-permissive environments and the weapons of opportunity that can be improvised, concealed and used in high risk situations. Using case studies to reverse-engineer criminal methodologies involving weapons, the Weaponology Module focuses on the evidenc

www.edsmanifesto.com

If this is the one, it's 550$

 

[Buka]

My JKD instructor would come to our dojo to teach classes in RBSD from time to time. He'd always start the same way.....

Have us run in place for five minutes, knees high at a fast pace. When he'd clap his hands we were to drop to the ground, do three fast squat thrusts, then up, running in place with your knees high again. Everyone would be huffing and puffing by this point. Five minutes is a long time.

Then he'd have us spin in a circle for thirty seconds, then stop and spin the other way. Now we were huffing and very dizzy. Then he'd tell us "when I say GO, take down the person beside you and put him in a control hold or a submission, punching allowed. GO!"

The person you were doing it to was trying to do it to you, too.

It was a lot of fun. Usually called for a lot of ice afterwards, though.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Out of curiosity, what is the price for these classes?

It's cheaper in the long run, to just get the theoritical content off his Patreon, then order the fighting curriculum off of Libre Knife Fighting.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

My JKD instructor would come to our dojo to teach classes in RBSD from time to time. He'd always start the same way.....

Have us run in place for five minutes, knees high at a fast pace. When he'd clap his hands we were to drop to the ground, do three fast squat thrusts, then up, running in place with your knees high again. Everyone would be huffing and puffing by this point. Five minutes is a long time.

Then he'd have us spin in a circle for thirty seconds, then stop and spin the other way. Now we were huffing and very dizzy. Then he'd tell us "when I say GO, take down the person beside you and put him in a control hold or a submission, punching allowed. GO!"

The person you were doing it to was trying to do it to you, too.

It was a lot of fun. Usually called for a lot of ice afterwards, though.

My instructor would toss in a weapon in the middle of that, see who gets it first. Grappling over a knife is an absolute *****.

 

[Buka]

My instructor would toss in a weapon in the middle of that, see who gets it first. Grappling over a knife is an absolute *****.

We used to do that all the time in knife fighting class. Our instructor had everyone throw twenty bucks into a pool. Two guys, each at opposite walls, would run to the middle where the knife was, and then the fight was on. Loser was eliminated. We would continue until only a winner was left, the winner would get all the money. I only won once, but it was over four hundred bucks. What fun we had.

There was a guy from South Africa, Mark Human, he used to teach a lot of classes dealing with the draw and use of a knife while grappling. It was eye opening, lots of fun, too. One of the lessons learned was how you carry a knife so you can get to it quickly under any circumstance.

It sucked so bad when you were getting smoked on the ground and couldn't get to your training knife.

His wife, Kelly, was a friend of mine. (one of Nick Cerio's former spouses) She was teaching a class in her school in Johannesburg when she noticed out the window one of her students being attacked by a group of men. She grabbed nunchucks off the wall, ran out and went at them. Split the head open of one of the attackers, the rest ran away. Guy died on the way to the hospital.

Everything was caught on a security camera. The cops looked at it, took her statement, didn't even bring her to the station. From what she told me, nobody ever attacked anyone outside of her school again.