How to deal with a difficult adult student?

[Gerry Seymour]

i understand what you are saying. i know the culture of a traditional dojo. but i think the one factor that may be over looked here is that in general she was not tasked to instruct adults only the kids and teens and this is an adult student. that makes a big difference to the "guy" and how her instruction is received.

If I understand your point, Hoshin, it's a pretty good one. How the helper's role is communicated to students can make a difference. If he heard the instructor say, "Keep an eye on the kids" or "Check the kids", he may feel like she's stepping out of bounds (though she isn't). It could be a matter of perception.

 

[MA_Student]

You don't need to handle it. It's not your school. Don't want to sound rude but don't overvalue your own importance. Tell the head instructor and that's it move on.

That's why I don't think people with only a years training should be teaching. I mean a years basically nothing. God I'd never even dare teach after a year and issues like this happen. Say this guys been training for 8 months. That means you've only been training 4 months more and yet you're telling him what to do no wonder people aren't really going to listen. I think it should be at least 3 years until you teach

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't need to handle it. It's not your school. Don't want to sound rude but don't overvalue your own importance. Tell the head instructor and that's it move on.

That's why I don't think people with only a years training should be teaching. I mean a years basically nothing. God I'd never even dare teach after a year and issues like this happen. Say this guys been training for 8 months. That means you've only been training 4 months more and yet you're telling him what to do no wonder people aren't really going to listen. I think it should be at least 3 years until you teach

There's nothing wrong with a technically competent student at that stage assisting with newer students. It's up to the instructor to determine if a student is capable for (and will profit from) the assignment.

 

[Steve]

You don't need to handle it. It's not your school. Don't want to sound rude but don't overvalue your own importance. Tell the head instructor and that's it move on.

That's why I don't think people with only a years training should be teaching. I mean a years basically nothing. God I'd never even dare teach after a year and issues like this happen. Say this guys been training for 8 months. That means you've only been training 4 months more and yet you're telling him what to do no wonder people aren't really going to listen. I think it should be at least 3 years until you teach

I think this is very arbitrary. There are guys who have trained for 10 years I wouldn't want teaching a class. And conversely, some guys with a year or two who are great. Tenure is only one factor in determining whether someone is credible or not.

 

[hoshin1600]

for the MT posters,
going by what Bill has said Isshin-Ryu is a traditional style dojo. the culture is one where the head instructor mainly gives instruction only to the most senior students and the kohai students have to rely on instruction from the sempai and senior students. this culture is something many here may not like or agree with but it is what it is.

If I understand your point, Hoshin, it's a pretty good one. How the helper's role is communicated to students can make a difference. If he heard the instructor say, "Keep an eye on the kids" or "Check the kids", he may feel like she's stepping out of bounds (though she isn't). It could be a matter of perception.

we have to remember this sensei, sempai, kohai relationship is completely foreign to most of us. so the "guy" is operating from a place of total ignorance. that kind of dojo dynamic is something that for some is learnt through osmosis and for some it needs to be spelled out and specifically stated. if it not addressed then the student who is having problems is doomed for failure at no real fault of his own.
the fact that the "guy" went to the sensei and complained about her treatment of him shows that he does not see her as an instructor but someone who is treating him badly and who he thinks has an over inflated ego, and as you say "over stepping her bounds"

 

[WaterGal]

Some of this is, I think, a gender thing. In my experience, there's a certain percentage of adult male students who have a hard time accepting that a woman knows more about martial arts than they do, even if the woman has been training in that art for years and the guy's experience consists entirely of watching Bruce Lee movies. Honestly, the only remedy I've found to that is to knock those guys around until they either learn some respect or quit.

 

[hoshin1600]

Some of this is, I think, a gender thing. In my experience, there's a certain percentage of adult male students who have a hard time accepting that a woman knows more about martial arts than they do, even if the woman has been training in that art for years and the guy's experience consists entirely of watching Bruce Lee movies. Honestly, the only remedy I've found to that is to knock those guys around until they either learn some respect or quit.

that is entirely possible. some men dont like women instruction.
however men tend to respect ability. which is why i kinda wanted to steer clear of gender, because this could apply to everyone. men respect ability and in martial arts that means they respect people who can kick their butts. i think it happens where a women sees a lack of respect from a guy and thinks it is because she is a women, when in fact it is really because a guy cannot respect an instructor if he can kick her butt when he has no knowledge of martial arts. so yes being a women has a strength factor in having ability but it is not really a male chauvinistic attitude.

 

[Buka]

It is for both reasons. The head instructor typically does not have the time to personally teach the basics to each incoming student, and given that most students quit fairly early on, it is wasted effort if he or she does. Student instructors hone their skills by assisting with instruction (under supervision of course) and beginners get the basics, which can be taught by anyone who has a year's experience I would think.

I tried to make this the last quote, but messed that up. But I'll save it for last.

I think this is very arbitrary. There are guys who have trained for 10 years I wouldn't want teaching a class. And conversely, some guys with a year or two who are great. Tenure is only one factor in determining whether someone is credible or not.

I couldn't agree more. My wife is as knowledgeable a Martial Artist as I've ever met, has choked out more guys training than I have, and used to kick and punch for money. But she can't teach worth a damn. Not even a little bit.

for the MT posters,
going by what Bill has said Isshin-Ryu is a traditional style dojo. the culture is one where the head instructor mainly gives instruction only to the most senior students and the kohai students have to rely on instruction from the sempai and senior students. this culture is something many here may not like or agree with but it is what it is.


we have to remember this sensei, sempai, kohai relationship is completely foreign to most of us. so the "guy" is operating from a place of total ignorance. that kind of dojo dynamic is something that for some is learnt through osmosis and for some it needs to be spelled out and specifically stated. if it not addressed then the student who is having problems is doomed for failure at no real fault of his own.
the fact that the "guy" went to the sensei and complained about her treatment of him shows that he does not see her as an instructor but someone who is treating him badly and who he thinks has an over inflated ego, and as you say "over stepping her bounds"

Loved all your posts on this subject.

Some of this is, I think, a gender thing. In my experience, there's a certain percentage of adult male students who have a hard time accepting that a woman knows more about martial arts than they do, even if the woman has been training in that art for years and the guy's experience consists entirely of watching Bruce Lee movies. Honestly, the only remedy I've found to that is to knock those guys around until they either learn some respect or quit.

If you could see the smile on my face...

To Bill's point, which I always like..

This is an important point to me. There were two times in a students career that I was going to be in front of them, the other three bajjillion times I taught them didn't matter. One was if they made Black BeIt. Nobody else was presenting them that belt. And since so few actually made it, it was a very big deal. The other time was their very first class in the Dojo.

I always taught that first class, always. I wanted students, each and every one that ever bowed in, to know exactly what was what. I don't care if it was five twelve year old Boy Scouts, five Hells Angels, five hookers or five cops. Each and every one was going to know the rules, dojo etiquette, what we were going to do and what was expected of them. And every initial class was free. Not as a come on, just take class so you see if you're going to like it here. I would never let anyone other than a senior instructor teach that class, and only if I was on the road for an extended time. That first class is important, it sets the tone for what a person's entire Martial career might or might not be. And in that first class, stance and position is explained, trained and practiced. I believe it to be very important, very specific and very detail orientated. Stance and position are our foundation. I want to teach that first class.

Now....on the other side of that coin, if I had a beginner teaching someone something, which wouldn't happen but for the sake of conversation let's say it did, there's no way, no damn way, I'm not watching what goes on - and if the student walked away from whoever was helping him, that student would answer to me, on the spot, immediately.
And it usually only has to happen once or twice before word spreads like wildfire. Especially in a city Dojo. If you run a dojo, how and what you make that dojo is entirely up to you. Your words matter. But your actions matter even more.

Same thing when you teach DT to in-service cops you've never met before. They'll be guys with attitudes. Guys who question who this guy is, because he don't look like much. And there's always that one guy. Always. With cops you are more friendly, light hearted - then you use them as your Uke, take em down hard, lock em, and make them speak in tongues, all the while still being light hearted and friendly because you always want them to be able to save face afterwards. Sometimes you really have to scare the sheet out of them, but in a nice way. You talk with them afterwards, tell them why you had to smoke them, because it was the only way they'd listen and trust you. And they get it. You kind of like getting one of those guys every decade or so.

With cops, you only need to do it once. The word spreading wildfire is like an inferno with cops. Nobody talks more to each other than cops, especially about other cops.

And on the other side of that coin, which is germane to this thread, I started teaching after three whole months of training. Can you even imagine that, three fricken' months? Not because I knew what I was teaching, I didn't have a clue, but because I had better communication skills than our instructor. He'd make me teach them a class after he did, doing the exact same thing. Kind of translating what he was trying to get across. Two of those students I had in my first year still train under me today, not often because we're far apart now, but they haven't left after all these years. And they're both better Martial Artists than I am. But, then, hey, they did have a better teacher than I did.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

for the MT posters,
going by what Bill has said Isshin-Ryu is a traditional style dojo. the culture is one where the head instructor mainly gives instruction only to the most senior students and the kohai students have to rely on instruction from the sempai and senior students. this culture is something many here may not like or agree with but it is what it is.


we have to remember this sensei, sempai, kohai relationship is completely foreign to most of us. so the "guy" is operating from a place of total ignorance. that kind of dojo dynamic is something that for some is learnt through osmosis and for some it needs to be spelled out and specifically stated. if it not addressed then the student who is having problems is doomed for failure at no real fault of his own.
the fact that the "guy" went to the sensei and complained about her treatment of him shows that he does not see her as an instructor but someone who is treating him badly and who he thinks has an over inflated ego, and as you say "over stepping her bounds"

I have to say that in the dojo where I train, our sensei does indeed teach at all levels - I was just saying that as I understand it, the founder only taught the senior students, as you have described.

I help out by instructing the kids and some adult classes, by which I mean I am in the dojo alongside our sensei, who sometimes splits the classes up based on their level of experience and hands a segment of them to me and other volunteer adult students (brown belt and up). He does indeed teach the beginners, but I also assist as I am able.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I couldn't agree more. My wife is as knowledgeable a Martial Artist as I've ever met, has choked out more guys training than I have, and used to kick and punch for money. But she can't teach worth a damn. Not even a little bit.

My sensei has noted that some of his blackbelts are better at kata, others better fighters, some better at teaching. Very few are superior at all three, although it happens. When I am instructing, I am being watched by my sensei. He doesn't just hand the class over to me and walk away; and I know that my teaching abilities as well as my ability to perform the techniques I am teaching are part of my training.

 

[drop bear]

I do helpering from time to time. If they dont want to listen. I dont really care. Not worth my aggravation.

And then I bash them is sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do helpering from time to time. If they dont want to listen. I dont really care. Not worth my aggravation.

And then I bash them is sparring.

Sounds like the same approach Watergal was suggesting. I usually save that for upper ranks who take advantage of lower ranks (throwing too hard, etc.), but it's useful in other situations.

 

[drop bear]

Sounds like the same approach Watergal was suggesting. I usually save that for upper ranks who take advantage of lower ranks (throwing too hard, etc.), but it's useful in other situations.

Well in theory at some point they will turn around and ask for some help. After they have been beaten up a few times.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well in theory at some point they will turn around and ask for some help. After they have been beaten up a few times.

In theory.

 

[JR 137]

Well in theory at some point they will turn around and ask for some help. After they have been beaten up a few times.

I know some people who never learn from that lesson. They’re few and far between, but they’re out there.

 

[drop bear]

I know some people who never learn from that lesson. They’re few sugar between, but they’re out there.

Yeah. I have a friend of mine who used to get destroyed. But thought it was worth the price to chirp up.

To the point I have outright slapped him during BJJ drills.

Honestly i respect his decision there.

 

[JR 137]

@Druid11
Respect is earned and it isn’t automatic. I’m not saying you did anything initially to deserve disrespect, but people aren’t going to respect you and you’re opinion just because they’re “supposed to.”

I agree with pretty much everything that’s be said, it I’ll add this...

A lot of people want to be taught by the CI. Unless it’s explicitly said that the CI doesn’t teach anyone under X rank before a new person signs up, it’s certainly implied that the bulk of the learning will be from that person. If I was brand new to the martial arts and expected the head guy to be my teacher, and I felt I was being passed off to someone with only a year of experience, I’d be pretty aggravated. My mentality would be “I’m not paying him to have you teach me, I’m paying to have him teach me.”

I’m not saying he’s in the right nor am I saying he’s being reasonable; I’m just putting myself in his shoes. Hopefully the yelling at him was figuratively speaking and not literal. If you in fact yelled, I’d turn my back and walk away too. Maybe not the way/time he did it he did it, but I wouldn’t give you the time of day. I’d definitely walk away and ask the CI exactly what your role is.

When all is said and done, I’m pretty sure you’ve got a 20 something punk kid who thinks he knows far more than he genuinely does. But on the flip side, it seems you may be somewhat guilty of the same behavior. It doesn’t matter who started it nor how it came about. You can’t control how anyone acts, the only thing you can control is how you react. If you’re not being treated the way you feel you should be treated, figuratively step back and try a different approach. If that doesn’t work, step back and ask for help. Going back and forth verbally and physically does absolutely no good. Especially when you’re not the person in charge.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah. I have a friend of mine who used to get destroyed. But thought it was worth the price to chirp up.

To the point I have outright slapped him during BJJ drills.

Honestly i respect his decision there.

Stupid autocorrect changed “few and far between” to few sugar between.” Gotta love it.

But yeah, smacking some people around takes longer to get old than others

 

[Druid11]

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I thought I'd just make myself a little clearer on a couple points. I don't see myself as an instructor by any means, and I wouldn't even describe what I do (especially in the teen class) as teaching. I will teach the younger kids basic things but the instructors actually teach all the classes. Checking kata happens in the first 15 minutes or so of class and that's really the only thing I "teach" and I only check those on katas that I am authorized by the instructor to check and if there is some question about the kata that I'm not 100% confident I know the answer too I talk to the instructor. It's just not possible for the instructor to watch everyone's kata every class there are too many students. If they did that would be all that was done in the class. After checking I'm just helping, I make sure the kids are paying attention and not doing anything dangerous. I do circulate around the class (as does the instructor) if the other students have questions I answer them assuming once again I know the answer and if I don't I once again refer to the instructor. I'll help other students that are having trouble with a technique but I wouldn't say I teach them. By in large, I'm a hall monitor in the teen class, I walk around making sure everyone's actually practicing the techniques, make sure they're being safe, and say encouraging things. I also do administrative things like take attendance and hand out information. I don't teach, I help the class run more smoothly (and not me personally but the helpers in general).

I don't think it's unreasonable for the student to take advice from another student that's been around longer than he has. Heck, I take advice from students that have been around shorter amounts of time than I have. If someone sees that I do something when I spar that creates an exploitable pattern and they give me the heads up I'm doing it, for example, I thank them no matter what color their belt is. My dojo has a very chill friendly family vibe, especially amongst the adult students. There's not a ton of ego and we all like to help each other. Somethings come easier to some people so I've helped brown belts with things that came easier to me and white belts have helped me with things that came easier to them, no one is really hung up on rank. It's more of a "Hey, if you do X it works better." There is an expectation that you treat everyone with respect. We call each other Mr. X and Ms. Y on the floor, you bow and shake hands with anyone you've worked with.

And I point out that he has self-taught himself certain things because when it's mentioned (and not just by me) to him that we don't do X a certain way (a stance that's too long, ect) the response is from him is, "It's a habit." But he doesn't seem to be willing to break those habits. And to be frank, I don't really care if he takes my advice about his stance or his kata. The only time I really care if he listens to me is when I'm monitoring the sparring groups. In that case, I'm acting as a referee. In general, the only time I expect to be listened to without question is when it comes to safety. And I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation when part of the reason I'm there is to be a second set of eyes for the instructor to make sure everyone stays safe.

I also may have been a bit a bit hyperbolic when I said I yelled at him. More correctly I yelled to him, the room gets loud when a bunch of people are sparring and then wearing headgear on top of it and I have to be loud to be heard. I didn't even single him out the first couple times, I just made general warnings to watch head contact and close hands, when he continued I did specify him by name. My tone probably was a bit sharp when I told him not to turn his back on me but he was being rude and I didn't much feel like being overly polite.

After tonight I think whatever issues he has listening to the helpers is a bit beyond me anyway. I wasn't helping tonight but I came in a bit early to warm up and caught the tail end of the teen class that he was in. They were sparring and first the helper was reminding him to close his hands, he stopped and said he did it out of "habit." She explained that the rule was to protect him and keep him from getting his fingers broken, he rolled his eyes. Then later he was sparring a teen girl (higher ranked than he) when he stopped took out his mouthpiece and began telling her all the things she was doing wrong. The instructor (though not the head instructor, who wasn't there) stepped in at that point and told to put his mouthpiece back in and finish the round. She then pulled him aside and spoke to him. I don't think that went over very well since he seemed rather sullen during the adult class (though he still did have ton of advice for his partner during the adult class as well) and after class I was cleaning up he was putting his shoes on and I wished him a happy thanksgiving I didn't get a response he just walked away from me.

 

[Steve]

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I thought I'd just make myself a little clearer on a couple points. I don't see myself as an instructor by any means, and I wouldn't even describe what I do (especially in the teen class) as teaching. I will teach the younger kids basic things but the instructors actually teach all the classes. Checking kata happens in the first 15 minutes or so of class and that's really the only thing I "teach" and I only check those on katas that I am authorized by the instructor to check and if there is some question about the kata that I'm not 100% confident I know the answer too I talk to the instructor. It's just not possible for the instructor to watch everyone's kata every class there are too many students. If they did that would be all that was done in the class. After checking I'm just helping, I make sure the kids are paying attention and not doing anything dangerous. I do circulate around the class (as does the instructor) if the other students have questions I answer them assuming once again I know the answer and if I don't I once again refer to the instructor. By in large, I'm a hall monitor in the teen class, I walk around making sure everyone's actually practicing the techniques, make sure they're being safe, and say encouraging things. I also do administrative things like take attendance and hand out information. I don't teach, I help the class run more smoothly (and not me personally but the helpers in general).

I don't think it's unreasonable for the student to take advice from another student that's been around longer than he has. Heck, I take advice from students that have been around shorter amounts of time than I have. If someone sees that I do something when I spar that creates an exploitable pattern and they give me the heads up I'm doing it, for example, I thank them no matter what color their belt is. My dojo has a very chill friendly family vibe, especially amongst the adult students. There's not a ton of ego and we all like to help each other. That being said there is an expectation that you treat everyone with respect. We call each other Mr. X and Ms. Y on the floor, you bow and shake hands with anyone you've worked with.

And I point out that he has self-taught himself certain things because when it's mentioned (and not just by me) to him that we don't do X a certain way (a stance that's too long, ect) the response is from him is, "It's a habit." But he doesn't seem to be willing to break those habits. And to be frank, I don't really care if he takes my advice about his stance or his kata. The only time I really care if he listens to me is when I'm monitoring the sparring groups. In that case, I'm acting as a referee In general, the only time I expect to be listened to without question is when it comes to safety. And I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation when part of the reason I'm there is to be a second set of eyes for the instructor to make sure everyone stays safe.

After tonight I think whatever issues he has listening to the helpers is a bit beyond me anyway. I wasn't helping tonight but I came in a bit early to warm up and caught the tail end of the teen class that he was in. They were sparring and first the helper was reminding him to close his hands, he stopped and said he did it out of "habit." She explained that the rule was to protect him and keep him from getting his fingers broken, he rolled his eyes. Then later he was sparring a teen girl (higher ranked than he) when he stopped took out his mouthpiece and began telling her all the things she was doing wrong. The instructor (though not the head instructor, who wasn't there) stepped in at that point and told to put his mouthpiece back in and finish the round. She then pulled him aside and spoke to him. I don't think that went over very well since he seemed rather sullen during the adult class (though he still did have ton of advice for his partner during the adult class as well) and after class I was cleaning up he was putting his shoes on and I wished him a happy thanksgiving I didn't get a response he just walked away from me.

Sounds like you guys are handling it just fine. Do what you can to protect him from himself, but I’d use most of your energy keeping his partners safe from him (if he’s doing dumb things).