How the Japanese view of the black belt

[HighKick]

I always presumed the "karate is for life" thing meant that you CAN train all your life, as the training can be tailored to your abilities, limitations etc as you age, and as some aspects decline (athleticism etc), others can take their place and still be developed (like methods of power generation and other subtleties).

I didn't think it meant that when you start, you cannot stop or you're not a real practitioner..

Also another meaning: that the training in karate doesn't have an end point as there isn't really an endpoint. Thus, for life.

Hand raised.

 

[Cri70]

Agreed, but can’t the same be said for most activities in Japan, America, Europe or anywhere else? My dad is 88 and still plays a round golf three times each week, plus time at the range and the practice green. The implication from comments like the one in this thread is that his approach to golf is somehow, intrinsically Eastern. I would disagree.

Indeed it can, there's nothing specifically eastern about it.

 

[_Simon_]

Hand raised.

Unsure if it's that you have a question, or it's more an AMEN *hand raised*

Either way I see your hand and I acknowledge it!

 

[_Simon_]

I think you can do versions of Karate throughout ones life but you may cringe at the thought of ‘old man karoddy’ as a younger exponent. But isn’t this the same as, say, soccer, cycling and skateboarding? I’ve seen older people playing versions of these activities well into old age. This is not unique to the martial arts.

I have a personal prejudice with regards Iaido. I feel that once you’re unable to perform kneeling/squatting kata (suwari waza) then it ceases being Iai. Suwari waza are so integral to the Iai, that having to cut them out stunts the art. Then we need to ask, what happens, as a karateka, when you can’t kick above the waist (in a school in which head kicks are part of the curriculum)? What happens when you lose your ‘snap’ or ability to move in the deep stances that are part of your school? Is what you’re doing really your school of karoddy and should you teach beginners by example (as is often the case in martial arts).

Yeah I guess it then comes down to what you see as and will define as 'practicing karate'. Here's where it gets a bit amorphous...

When one loses or moreso can't perform some aspects, there are plenty of other things along the karate spectrum that can be developed and practiced. And to be honest I don't really know if any style practices every single aspect that there is within the scope of karate within their system... and many folks will disparage other karate styles and state that "their karate isn't proper karate as it doesn't contain grappling, throws, pressure-point strikes, *insert myriad of things here*"... so where is that line of whether you are indeed training the art or not...

So I don't really know haha. We have many folks in our club that can't do deep stances, OR kick above the waist. So they don't go as deep in stance and just kick lower, it's really no issue. And I absolutely would say they're still practicing karate. I know in my old Kyokushin club, as you get into 3rd, 2nd, 1st kyu and higher, more and more kicks are in the syllabus within certain combinations you need for grading, and almost ALL of them are listed as jodan. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't decline you grading because they aren't jodan kicks.

But I fully get what you mean with regards to iaido. That's an integral part of the art. I just don't know what that definitive line between still practicing or no longer really practicing the art is.... I lean more towards formless essence of the art than rigid forms, but that isn't always exactly very quantifiable

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think you can do versions of Karate throughout ones life but you may cringe at the thought of ‘old man karoddy’ as a younger exponent. But isn’t this the same as, say, soccer, cycling and skateboarding? I’ve seen older people playing versions of these activities well into old age. This is not unique to the martial arts.

Young practitioners may intitially cringe thinking of this old man doing karate, but I assure you they cringe for another reason if I get physical with them. I know others even older that can make me cringe from fear at the thought of coming up against them. "Old man karoddy" is often fearsome.

I feel that once you’re unable to perform kneeling/squatting kata (suwari waza) then it ceases being Iai.

I've only got about 3.5 years in the art so I'm far from knowing the advanced finer points. But based on what I do know, and many years of advanced karate, understanding power/mvmt/torque/hip principles, I disagree. Having once learned the iai principles to a sho/nidan level, I think there will be enough understanding and ability to do all the other forms pretty well and still advance in skill. Maybe my karate experience (that others may not have) influences my opinion.

Not being able to get into seiza as a beginner, I agree that it will be more difficult to develop those integral basics and principles, but not impossible.

as a karateka, when you can’t kick above the waist (in a school in which head kicks are part of the curriculum)? What happens when you lose your ‘snap’ or ability to move in the deep stances that are part of your school? Is what you’re doing really your school of karoddy and should you teach beginners by example

Understanding the art's techniques, one can easily adapt to losing a few tools; there's plenty to choose from. The loss of some tools is but a drop in the bucket of knowledge that makes up the style. As for teaching without being able to perform the high or low techniques, absolutely! Often the key to the technique is not at its extreme endpoint, but at the beginning.

 

[gyoja]

As far as high kicks go, they are definitely integral to TSD. After my injuries, and the fact that I’m getting older, I can’t perform the high kicks as smoothly as I used to, especially with my left leg. This in no way prevents me from coaching students through the techniques.

 

[Gyakuto]

The MA are unusual in that there is an expectation that the teacher should be a ‘better’ performer than their students. Imagine a diving or swimming coach being expected to be better than their Olympic student!

 

[HighKick]

Unsure if it's that you have a question, or it's more an AMEN *hand raised*

Either way I see your hand and I acknowledge it!

"I always presumed the "karate is for life" thing meant that you CAN train all your life, as the training can be tailored to your abilities, limitations etc as you age, and as some aspects decline (athleticism etc), others can take their place and still be developed (like methods of power generation and other subtleties)."

My hand was raised for this section of text.
It took me a long time to accept this through my injuries. I could handle the normal age wear and tear stuff and even the sports and competition related injuries as well as the next person. Then I got severely injured in an accident and the changes in me were very steep both physically and mentally.

 

[HighKick]

I would suspect that the level of interest is roughly the same, per capita, in both areas. While there are surely some cultural differences, I am curious was practical effect those differences make with training.



Agreed, but can’t the same be said for most activities in Japan, America, Europe or anywhere else? My dad is 88 and still plays a round golf three times each week, plus time at the range and the practice green. The implication from comments like the one in this thread is that his approach to golf is somehow, intrinsically Eastern. I would disagree.

Your dad is impressive.
As to the comments, I think it just proves that whatever good things we are passionate about should be a lifetime endeavor.

 

[Steve]

Your dad is impressive.
As to the comments, I think it just proves that whatever good things we are passionate about should be a lifetime endeavor.

Thanks. I hope I’m moving as well as him when I get older.

The point, though, is that I don’t think his outlook is all that rare in the western world, as is sometimes implied (or overtly expressed).

 

[_Simon_]

Just wanted to wish this thread it's happy 10th birthday, wow!!! I hope you have a swell day, and looking forward to its next 10 years of discussion!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed, but can’t the same be said for most activities in Japan, America, Europe or anywhere else?

Definitely. To me, the point of saying "martial arts are for life" is to put that full range of practice (and the purpose of it) into context. When I was teaching, I took two views of this saying:

1. The purpose of training MA was for life, not for the sake of the MA. So I included practices that would benefit later in life. For instance, we specifically challenged balance (and I included some of those challenges in the forms), because as we age, that's something that degrades. Creating a better baseline to degrade from, could mean fewer falls in their 80's.
2. MA is something you can do your entire life. This one was harder for me, because as I age, I become less and less able to take the falls some of our techniques require. And less able to take as many falls as being an involved student of NGA would require. So I emphasized some other areas of the art (which had pratical benefits, too), opening up areas folks could continue to study as their bodies became less able to take 100 falls in a class.

So you could apply these same views to anything - like golf. When playing golf, if you think of using it to improve your life, it's better to walk than use a cart (though it's harder to find places that allow it). If you think of making it a lifelong practice, you have to give up the idea that it's only fun if you can out-drive everyone else.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I emphasized some other areas of the art (which had pratical benefits, too), opening up areas folks could continue to study as their bodies became less able

Great idea. MA employs many biophysical elements like balance, proprioception, breathing, body alignment and so on, all of which are abilities that can generally aid one's advancement into old age. Even situational awareness. But combat specifics can also carry over.

Most MA contain a wide enough variety of techniques that we can pick and choose the ones we are best physically able to utilize as our bodies change. This may require adapting our strategy and tactics but that's built into the nature of MA and should pose no serious problems for the experienced practitioner.

"MA is for life" is true in several respects. We're lucky to have discovered and followed such an activity.

 

[Steve]

Definitely. To me, the point of saying "martial arts are for life" is to put that full range of practice (and the purpose of it) into context. When I was teaching, I took two views of this saying:

1. The purpose of training MA was for life, not for the sake of the MA. So I included practices that would benefit later in life. For instance, we specifically challenged balance (and I included some of those challenges in the forms), because as we age, that's something that degrades. Creating a better baseline to degrade from, could mean fewer falls in their 80's.
2. MA is something you can do your entire life. This one was harder for me, because as I age, I become less and less able to take the falls some of our techniques require. And less able to take as many falls as being an involved student of NGA would require. So I emphasized some other areas of the art (which had pratical benefits, too), opening up areas folks could continue to study as their bodies became less able to take 100 falls in a class.

So you could apply these same views to anything - like golf. When playing golf, if you think of using it to improve your life, it's better to walk than use a cart (though it's harder to find places that allow it). If you think of making it a lifelong practice, you have to give up the idea that it's only fun if you can out-drive everyone else.

I agree at a high level, but I’m a little thrown off by your examples and asides. For instance, value statements like “better” to walk than to use a cart. Healthier, perhaps. But better? Depends on what you’re looking for, doesn’t it? There’s a dude my dad plays with who is old as dirt (my dad is 88, so in context, that’s even funnier). He actually has permission from the course to drive his cart up onto the green because he’s so dang old. Yet he plays a full round of golf every Sunday.

 

[Steve]

Great idea. MA employs many biophysical elements like balance, proprioception, breathing, body alignment and so on, all of which are abilities that can generally aid one's advancement into old age. Even situational awareness. But combat specifics can also carry over.

Most MA contain a wide enough variety of techniques that we can pick and choose the ones we are best physically able to utilize as our bodies change. This may require adapting our strategy and tactics but that's built into the nature of MA and should pose no serious problems for the experienced practitioner.

"MA is for life" is true in several respects. We're lucky to have discovered and followed such an activity.

You had me up to the combat specifics part.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree at a high level, but I’m a little thrown off by your examples and asides. For instance, value statements like “better” to walk than to use a cart. Healthier, perhaps. But better? Depends on what you’re looking for, doesn’t it? There’s a dude my dad plays with who is old as dirt (my dad is 88, so in context, that’s even funnier). He actually has permission from the course to drive his cart up onto the green because he’s so dang old. Yet he plays a full round of golf every Sunday.

That “better” was in the context of the post - about using golf to develop traits to improve quality of life later. In that context, the exercise is better.

 

[Hyoho]

I agree at a high level, but I’m a little thrown off by your examples and asides. For instance, value statements like “better” to walk than to use a cart. Healthier, perhaps. But better? Depends on what you’re looking for, doesn’t it? There’s a dude my dad plays with who is old as dirt (my dad is 88, so in context, that’s even funnier). He actually has permission from the course to drive his cart up onto the green because he’s so dang old. Yet he plays a full round of golf every Sunday.

In Japan the arts are divided in to expectation/goals and age. 20/30 30/40 etc. Reaching the older ages quality is the the goal rather than quantity. As younger spectators there is nothing better than to sit and watch that older man do a beautiful technique and hope that one day you might be able to do the same. Nice to be able to relax and laid back when fighting be fully aware of nearly all of the attacks made against you. Then do that one clean clear irrevocable waza that ends it all. Another reason I prefer classical arts with no belt system is that there is nothing to prove or uphold. Your level is obvious to all in the way you practice.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I prefer classical arts with no belt system is that there is nothing to prove or uphold. Your level is obvious to all in the way you practice.

I definitely agree with your second statement in the above quote. Your first one is a nice thought and I appreciate the altruism that you embrace therein. I have a slightly different take on it, though. One thing having a rank does for me and acts as a motivator is that I want to "uphold" what that rank represents.

Now, for this to work, the rank must represent a standard not easily met and not handed out casually. I luckily had a sensei extremely knowledgeable and possessing the best creds IMO in the USA in my art. He was strict and answered only to the Okinawan master of my style. So, when he awarded my rank it represented a level on par, or above, with anyone else holding that rank.

What this did in my mind was obligate me to uphold that trust that reflected not only upon him, but the master as well. Knowledge of our most advanced weapons form was required for this rank (according to the curriculum). I did not know it. Obviously, Sensei didn't mind and neither did I at the time. As you said, it's about quality not quantity. I would have been taught it eventually.

But I had the rank and I'd be damned if someone of that rank knew something about my style that I didn't.
This form (shishi no kun) is very long and complex and required hours of study and practice to get the moves down using videos of the master, his master and the founder. The rank motivated me to take on this obligation for my own peace of mind and to uphold the standard of my art as I saw it.

This is the value of rank for me personally. Is pride and ego involved in here somewhere? Perhaps, but the value and skill obtained justifies the means.

 

[Flying Crane]

Just wanted to wish this thread it's happy 10th birthday, wow!!! I hope you have a swell day, and looking forward to its next 10 years of discussion!

I do appreciate the hell out of you Simon. Just wanted you to know that.

 

[_Simon_]

I do appreciate the hell out of you Simon. Just wanted you to know that.

That's very kind thank you

(I even wrote the 10th birthday into my outlook calendar to remind me... sad)