How long to Black Belt?

[Danjo]

Here is what i think is a related question.
I read somewhere recently that Joe Lewis, in his style {Joe Lewis Karate i believe he calls it} has only promoted like 2 black belts in 10 years. {these numbers may not be exact, but you get the point i hope}.
to me that makes no sense as it only took him a whopping 9 months [i've also heard 7] to earn his black belt.

Any thoughts?



thanks
Rob
P.S. I think Mr. Norris was the first "video black-belt" as when he was stationed back in the States he would film himself doing forms and the other requirements to send back to his instructors in Korea for his 2nd & 3rd dans i believe.[/QUOT

Joe Lewis Got his black belt in 22 months in Okinawa.

 

[Danjo]

I think what it really comes down to is what the belt means to YOU. There should be one person that you cannot lie to : YOURSELF. If you got a BS black belt, then you should admit it to yourself and not allow yourself to be deluded into thinking that you are better than you are. The idea here is that the belt will only really mean three things.

1)Your place in the hierarchy of the specific system/school that you practice in.
2) The fact that you are now the official embodiment of what it takes to reach the top of the ladder in your system or organization.
3) A mark of personal achievement.
The fact that you are now the official embodiment of what it takes to reach the top of the ladder in your system or organization. Now, given that, if I were an instructor, I would be reluctant to promote anyone to black belt that I didn't want to respresent my school to the outside world. What would that say about me if I promoted a 12 year old to black belt, I would be saying that this is what the experts in my system were. Not a very good advertisement to say the least. So, how long to get to black belt? As long as it takes for the instructor to be satisfied that the pupil is ready to represent the system to the outside world. If the student feels that he got there too easily, then he or she should go to get instruction elsewhere.

 

[limubai2000]

I do agree with the ranking system. The simple fact is that most of us in this day and age were raised in a goal oriented lifestyle. Whether it be school or work we like to see how we compare to others. This inspires competition (in it's good and bad forms) and promotes self improvement. I do wish we didn't need to employ a ranking system in martial arts but this is the way in which society has evolved (for better or worse).

However I also think that the journey to that a goal is more important than getting there.

I am unsure on the length of time one should "serve" before getting a black belt because I feel that it greatly depends on the individual and instructor. I definetely disagree with handing them out easily even to "transplants" from another art no matter how similar.

I study Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu and the art is designed for someone to reach black belt in 3 to 5 years. But there are an additional 2 belts between black and instructor level (and 10 levels of instructor). I do look forward to reaching my black belt but just as the BB who co-instructs my class I will continue to practice and learn most likely until I die.

 

[iamdragon72]

A bit of wisdom from my Sifu, "The essence is in the art, not the sash."

 

[ShaolinWolf]

about a year left...I'm a red belt at the moment...

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Oh yeah, I forgot, it's April, not January...so I have about 7-8 months left til black belt...

 

[Tony]

In my system it takes an average of 5 years to attain a black sash and thats when you are officially and instructor. But once you get get to brown sash you start teaching more anyway! However I'm in no hurry to get my black sash. I do want to feel like I earnt it.

 

[MichiganTKD]

1. In our organization, testings are generally held every two months. There is the main Central Studio exam, as well as regional tests held at different schools around the Organization.

2. Not every student tests every two months, just the ones who are ready.

3. It usually takes about 2-3 years to attain black belt.

4. Judging is done by Instructors who have attained 4th Dan and above in the organization. Below 4th Dan, you can teach but not judge.

5. Instructors cannot judge their own students, only make notes. Their scores for their own students are not counted. It is very easy for an Instructor to be biased in favor of their own students, much like a parent who believes their child can do no wrong. Therefore, an Instructor other than the student's is less likely to be partial. Once in a while, we will have guest Grandmasters if it is a really big test.

6. Black belt testing is important, because it gives the testers a reason to feel proud of their accomplishment. Not only the students, but their Instructor, fellow students, and family need a sense of ceremony that acknowleges what they accomplished. Much like high school graduation. What high school says "Here's your diploma, now get out!"? They make a big ceremony out of it. Same with black belt. It is special and should be treated as such.

7. Every organization is different, but 10 years to black belt is a bit unreasonable. How do I know what I'll be doing in 10 years. I get the impression that a lot of these organizations are led by Instructors who purposely keep their students from getting to black to avoid having to really teach them. In other words, if I didn't get that high in my original style, or if I made it up (Dragon Kempo??) , the longer I make you wait til black belt the longer I can go without having to admit I have nothing new to teach or start making things up.

 

[TigerWoman]

2. Not every student tests every two months, just the ones who are ready.

3. It usually takes about 2-3 years to attain black belt.

It is about the same in our school system, every student usually has to wait three months minimum though for each rank test and sometimes longer in the higher belts depending if the instructor thinks you are ready. The master instructor also double promotes sometimes. It also takes 2-1/2 yrs to get to recommended black belt or deputy black belt and then an additional minimum six months to get 1st Dan. In our school, only the master 5th Dan, judges at testing. Black belts (highest 2nd dan) just assist.

 

[Kenpo_Chick]

In our style there are 9 full belts and a grading to a half tab every 3 months (4 per year). Therefore it takes an average of 4 years to get to a Black Belt. However it depends on the student and their readiness to accomplish this.
I have done Kenpo for 3 1/2 nearly 4 years and I'm approaching my Black belt grading on the 26th of June however I have progressed faster than most in my style. Our Instructors do not invite you to the grading unless they feel that you can achieve it or have shown over the past 6 months or so that you're ready to progress. However there is a student who will be accompanying me for my black belt who has done this style 6-12 months earlier than me, and has not achieved his black belt because he was not ready for it.

 

[marshallbd]

I know that I'll try to be deputy black as long as possible. Maybe until the point where my instructor drags me kicking and screaming to the testing.......

I've not heard this term used before...please explain what it entails as far as testing goes.... :asian:

 

[Gentle Fist]

In my system,
People who have trained in other systems or have dan rank in another system tend to aquire shodan in about 3 to 5 years. People who are new to MA and start out with us tend to take between 5 and 8. There are a ton of students who get to ikkyu in 4 years and stay there for another 4.

 

[jdubakki]

i think it really depends on the person i have a few students that spend alot of time in the school and are progressing really fast but there are also some students that have been a yellow belt for like 2 years they just dont give it any effort so it shows.

funny thing for me is when the 2 year yellow belt resents the other belts for them actually practicing

 

[Yasuki]

I think personaly that black belt doesn't mean much. I've had the honor ofbeing more understanding of the true nature of Karatedo than some black belts. Whom allow rank to be too much of an issue. I will earn my "black belt" when my white belt becomes black from training.

 

[marshallbd]

I've had the honor ofbeing more understanding of the true nature of Karatedo than some black belts. .

What do you mean by that?

I will earn my "black belt" when my white belt becomes black from training.

A very noble statement.... :asian:

 

[Jion]

In my system it takes an average of 3.5 to 4 years from white to black. The test spacings are smaller at the low end, 1-2 months, then 4-5 for most of the intermediate ranks. Brown to black is generally a year and a half.

Someone mentioned instructors not being allowed to grade their own students... at our black belt tests, the instructor gets first word - if he says "fail", the others don't even get a word in. He can't pass them on through, of course.

 

[marshallbd]

In my system it takes an average of 3.5 to 4 years from white to black. The test spacings are smaller at the low end, 1-2 months, then 4-5 for most of the intermediate ranks. Brown to black is generally a year and a half.

Someone mentioned instructors not being allowed to grade their own students... at our black belt tests, the instructor gets first word - if he says "fail", the others don't even get a word in. He can't pass them on through, of course.

Why is there a panel that promotes to Black Belt? Why does the instructor not have the authority to promote someone as he/she feels they are ready and knowledgeable enough? :asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

It is a question of partisanship. For example, in the Olympics, when an athlete is competing, the score from the judge representing the athlete's home country is not counted. Preferably he is not judged by someone from his home country at all. it makes sense if you think about it. How legitimate is the medal going to be if the deciding vote is cast by a judge from the same country as the athlete.
Same thing at testing. The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan. In our organization, if you have a student you feel is ready to test, you either senf him/her to the next regional testing or, barring that, you must invite at least one guest Instructor to judge your student. If no judge is available, your student cannot test. The only exception to this rule is Instructors who live far enough away from the Central Studio that inviting guest judges would be difficult on a regular basis. However, all of the Senior Instructors have Masters under them now, so it is much easier to bring judges in. In fact, at our testings, the Instructor of someone testing for Dan rank must leave the room while judges' votes are tallied.
This is the way it is traditionally done in Korea, starting with the formation of the KTA, when these rules were formalized. Independant schools with no ties to Korea will have their own rules.

 

[Aegis]

The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan.

Same thing at my style's gradings. There's one visiting instructor from a different region who determines the passes/fails. He can ask for advice from any other instructor there, but the decision is his in the end. It's like that for all gradings up to 2nd kyu. After that ytou have to go to a national grading instead. Similar method of grading, but fewer candidates, so they get them all together and have them beat each other up for a while.

 

[marshallbd]

It is a question of partisanship. For example, in the Olympics, when an athlete is competing, the score from the judge representing the athlete's home country is not counted. Preferably he is not judged by someone from his home country at all. it makes sense if you think about it. How legitimate is the medal going to be if the deciding vote is cast by a judge from the same country as the athlete.
Same thing at testing. The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan. In our organization, if you have a student you feel is ready to test, you either senf him/her to the next regional testing or, barring that, you must invite at least one guest Instructor to judge your student. If no judge is available, your student cannot test. The only exception to this rule is Instructors who live far enough away from the Central Studio that inviting guest judges would be difficult on a regular basis. However, all of the Senior Instructors have Masters under them now, so it is much easier to bring judges in. In fact, at our testings, the Instructor of someone testing for Dan rank must leave the room while judges' votes are tallied.
This is the way it is traditionally done in Korea, starting with the formation of the KTA, when these rules were formalized. Independant schools with no ties to Korea will have their own rules.

Thanks for that explanation, I was in a Tracy's school and the istructor promoted this guy to black and the only people there were the new BB , the instructor and me. I was his demo dummy for his test and the test was nowhere near as long as the ones I hear and read about here on this forum. It was intense while it was going on but very fast...like 45 minutes and As the "demo dummy" I went home in pain!!! (I thought that it was unusual to promote to black in that way, but I guess it happens that way i alot of the video tested systems such as the IKCA) :asian: