Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[Gerry Seymour]

why would i even consider that my view are not worth while?

That wasn't what he asked you.

 

[Buka]

You guys probably haven't played chess with a pigeon.

No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

 

[jobo]

That wasn't what he asked you.

it very much is, he asked if i had the standing to make my views with while, my view are always worth while

 

[Hyoho]

of course I'm steadfastly insisting my view is correct, its my view and i believe it to be,correct or it wouldn't be my view?????

So exactly how many shodan shikens (Black belt gradings) have you taken?

 

[Hyoho]

yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered

Nothing actually wrong with it. Most gradings are done by associations. They vary and have different takes on what constitutes grades. Sadly a black belt spells money in the West.

The biggest downfall has to be those that reach what they think is a high rank in the West then go to places like Japan and get beat up by kids. I took Japanese High school shodan to London and he fought the whole dojo and beat everybody "twice over". Nobody wants a double standard.

So who retires? I haven't. Refined would be better word.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sadly a black belt spells money in the West.

Why do you continue to make statements like this? That's far from universal.

 

[Hyoho]

This is something we can debate, Jobo. I'm not sure the problem is the old, out-of-shape folks wearing black belts. I think it's more likely the "soft" nature of early (and in some cases, all) classes. Nobody gets bent out of shape if a boxing coach gets old, as long as they still get results.

That said, I'm not sure the target market of most MA schools would stay more than a few classes if they had two hours of highly intense exercise every class. I'm not sure what the answer is to that conundrum.

EDIT: Re-reading this, I should be clear. I think the softer classes aren't inappropriate, especially for beginners.

To me even sugesting getting old is joke. It's like comparing a human with a mosquito. The human is the old guy the young one the mosquito. You watch it buzz around like an idiot and you 'swat it'. My 74 year old sensei beat the hell out of me twice day every day and I already had Nidan taken in Japan. I think I posted this before: You get into the dojo a bit late. No one is not practicing but watching. Up the top end is an impeccably dressed guy in bogu (armour). He's fighting a guy you know to be a 7th police riot squad instructor. The other guy makes him look like begginer. They bow off and remove their armour. The visitor is in his late 70s and 9th dan. That what MA is all about. It's not boxing. It's probably what partly drew me towards it as something I can practice and teach as long as I can walk.

It's not really reaching for the next belt either. What you have is recognition of what you already are. The dropout rate in Japan is Rokudan. Not so many that can get higher.

 

[Hyoho]

Why do you continue to make statements like this? That's far from universal.

Of course not always. But earning money from teaching it in Japan is against the budo constitution.

So dont you think that when money is involved it somewhat changes the outlook on what is required to make the grade?

Not that I am saying its bad.

 

[jks9199]

ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.

Which black belt test? In my association alone, there've been about 6 or more formats over the years... What does mine mean in someone else's? What about systems with no formal test?

What are you trying to prove or show as "still rates" a black belt?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course not always. But earning money from teaching it in Japan is against the budo constitution.

So dont you think that when money is involved it somewhat changes the outlook on what is required to make the grade?

Not that I am saying its bad.

It can change it, but doesn't necessarily. I charge for classes, but never factor that into my decisions, except in deciding what price point is likely to bring the most students, because I prefer teaching groups to teaching individuals. Many instructors allow laxity at the lowest ranks to keep income up, but all the ones I know are much stricter as the student progresses, and promoting to a higher rank rarely presents much opportunity for income on a per-hour basis.

 

[lklawson]

my idea of a computer hacker is the girl from the,dragon tattoo, you appear to be going off topic

Nope. You just don't want to see the point.

the problem is that the fat out of breath dude is the reality of a lot of black belts, hence my point they should be demoted for the good of the ma

Still waiting for proof that this is a problem.

 

[lklawson]

by bending to accommodate the lowest common level, they are spoiling the brand

What "brand?" And why do you care?

 

[jobo]

Nope. You just don't want to see the point.

Still waiting for proof that this is a problem.

you have had evidence, proof is what you decieded to make of my that evidence,

clearly you believe that tma is going from strengh to strengh, rather than my view that its in a death spiral and needs to radically change if it wants to prosper

 

[lklawson]

you have had evidence, proof is what you decieded to make of my that evidence,

That's not how "proof" works.

clearly you believe that tma is going from strengh to strengh, rather than my view that its in a death spiral and needs to radically change if it wants to prosper

No. "Clearly" I think that a black belt, and any grading really, only means what the certifying body says that it means, regardless of what you'd really really like it to be. See the problem is that, for some inexplicable reason, you think you should get to dictate to thousands of organizations around the world what their standards for grading should be, and your standards are apparently based on some caricature of "black belt." Yeah, good luck with that.

You want gradings to mean something else? Start your own danged organization.

 

[jobo]

That's not how "proof" works.

No. "Clearly" I think that a black belt, and any grading really, only means what the certifying body says that it means, regardless of what you'd really really like it to be. See the problem is that, for some inexplicable reason, you think you should get to dictate to thousands of organizations around the world what their standards for grading should be, and your standards are apparently based on some caricature of "black belt." Yeah, good luck with that.

You want gradings to mean something else? Start your own danged organization.

that's exactly how proof works, no body has proof ! they just have evidence , proof is if the jury, or in this case you choose to believe that evidence.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think you have stated a good response correctly.

Sounds like my GM. He invented a Kwan. When he reached his 70s he was still able to do a lot of things we kept striving to do. Reverse spin kick or some other thing that relied on younger joints? He didn't need to be able to do that perfectly as he had younger black belts to do that. But if you tried and did anything wrong, he could tell you and tell you what you needed to do to correct it. If you wanted to know how to do a particular joint lock better, he was your best person to ask and to demonstrate it. And don't ask him to demonstrate a pain pressure point because you don't think you are doing it quite right!

But you would demote him in his own Kwan?



All your noise and you haven't even reached black belt level yet? Have you considered that you don't have standing to make the statements you do?

Had to come back in here and fix this. @Tony Dismukes since I was afraid on reading this again that it might look as if I was accusing you of wanting to demote my GM in his own style. That was directed at jobo. I just wanted to clarify/correct any misunderstanding. Sorry if anyone did misunderstand. Sometimes I think faster than I type; a wonder to behold.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Had to come back in here and fix this. @Tony Dismukes since I was afraid on reading this again that it might look as if I was accusing you of wanting to demote my GM in his own style. That was directed at jobo. I just wanted to clarify/correct any misunderstanding. Sorry if anyone did misunderstand. Sometimes I think faster than I type; a wonder to behold.

No worries. I understood from context who you were talking to.

 

[Zombocalypse]

OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.

I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...

I believe in the value of sparring. I believe that sparring is as important as "drills", if I may call them that. Sparring is as close you can get with simulating a real match, and that is priceless. It is the same mentality in weightlifting and powerlifting. In weightlifting, for example, you don't waste your time doing **** like curls or upright rows. You train for attributes that are applicable for your event. Which means squats, deadlifts, and overhead presses and etcetera. And NO to tricep extensions and concentration curls. The value of sparring is as important as power cleans are with weightlifting (OLYMPIC).

I think belts should be eliminated from the whole system and replaced with "records". It's a radical idea, I know. But I'm a radical man. I believe that martial artists should be judged by two things: How many valid matches they've had and how often they won. I believe that such a barometer is a much more accurate way of gauging the fighter's competence level much more so than a belt.

Sparring with others should count as legitimate matches and their results should be recorded. And then use those records to give a proper title to the fighter.

But like I said, I'm a radical man with radical ideas.

 

[jobo]

OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.

I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...

I believe in the value of sparring. I believe that sparring is as important as "drills", if I may call them that. Sparring is as close you can get with simulating a real match, and that is priceless. It is the same mentality in weightlifting and powerlifting. In weightlifting, for example, you don't waste your time doing **** like curls or upright rows. You train for attributes that are applicable for your event. Which means squats, deadlifts, and overhead presses and etcetera. And NO to tricep extensions and concentration curls. The value of sparring is as important as power cleans are with weightlifting (OLYMPIC).

I think belts should be eliminated from the whole system and replaced with "records". It's a radical idea, I know. But I'm a radical man. I believe that martial artists should be judged by two things: How many valid matches they've had and how often they won. I believe that such a barometer is a much more accurate way of gauging the fighter's competence level much more so than a belt.

Sparring with others should count as legitimate matches and their results should be recorded. And then use those records to give a proper title to the fighter.

But like I said, I'm a radical man with radical ideas.

that is radical, if you only gave rank to those who could win fights, then a good fifty % of current black belts wouldn't be, that sounds like it will be less popular than my relegation strategy?

 

[lklawson]

that's exactly how proof works, no body has proof ! they just have evidence , proof is if the jury, or in this case you choose to believe that evidence.

Nope. Proof is NOT what I decide "to make of" "your evidence."

That's not how proof works.