How long can you hold a horse stance?

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, as the name implies the position you would be in if you were straddling a horse, how scrawny are Chinese horses that basically standing at attention is considered a horse stance?

I have never learned the wide horse stance. So, I don't know why people want to train the wide horse stance.

 

[frank raud]

The horse stance used in the throwing art (shoulder width) is narrower than the horse stance used in the striking art (shoulder width + 2 fists width).

Just to confirm my memory is not faulty, I checked three standard reference books for Judo, Kodokan Judo (1955 edition) Best Judo by Inokuma and Sato and Kodokan Throwing techniques by Toshiro Daigo. None of them make reference to horse stance (kiba dachi) or Shiko Dachi.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just to confirm my memory is not faulty, I checked three standard reference books for Judo, Kodokan Judo (1955 edition) Best Judo by Inokuma and Sato and Kodokan Throwing techniques by Toshiro Daigo. None of them make reference to horse stance (kiba dachi) or Shiko Dachi.

Horse stance 马步 (Ma Bu) is a Chinese term. It may not be used in the Japanese art.

For example,

English term: hip throw
Chinese term: Wen 揾
Japanese term: Koshi Guruma

​

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Alright, we've having a comp. Everyone start holdin' horse stance... NOW. Start.

Now define horse stance. Wait for it…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Alright, we've having a comp. Everyone start holdin' horse stance... NOW. Start.

Believe it or not, back in the 90, there was a Kung Fu tournament in Baltimore that had a division of "horse stance contest". Whoever could stand in horse stance the longest would be the champion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Something interesting to me is that wall sits have been a popular thing in fitness programs over the last 5 years. Wall sits are essentially aided horse stances. So something is there, that modern fitness is finally figuring out.

I think wall sits are for people who feel weird about standing in horse stance in a gym lol. If I go to the punching bag room. Horse Stance is normal. I don't get strange looks. If I go to weightlifting area, then horse stance makes people look at me like I'm strange lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've seen a lot of criticism of hojo undo; particularly the fact that physical conditioning through iron getas, gripping jars, etc were good for the time and place (i.e., pre-19th century Okinawa); but the benefits pale in comparison to modern weightlifting equipment.

So in the absence of barbells and plates to do squats and deadlifts, training to be able to endure the horse stance for lengthy periods was all they had. But with the availability of modern weightlifting equipment, you're much better off going that route.

Modern gym equipment trains the muscles but not necessarily the movement that the muscle must make when training functions.

Modern weightlifting is good for isolating the muscular movement, but it doesn't do well for full body muscular movement. Example
There is no piece of gym equipment that will allow you to work out all of the muscles involved in doing this exercise.

Here's the traditional version of this.

There is no modern-day weight training equipment that lets you train the muscles involved in these movements

Traditional Kung Fu Jumping

Modern day Jumping

No longer gripping jars?
- YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXc4oYC05hM

 

[Tigerwarrior]

The funny thing is, if you

- use hip throw to throw your opponent 10,000 times, you will be good at horse stance.
- stay in horse stance for 100 hours, you may not be good at hip throw.

What's the difference here? Do you like to train your MA skill through application? Or do you like to train your MA skill through basic? Anybody like to share your opinion on this?

I like to train my techniques through application. Then add a small bit of conditioning to improve my attributes. But the technical application is the main focus for me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Horse stance 马步 (Ma Bu) is a Chinese term. It may not be used in the Japanese art.

For example,

English term: hip throw
Chinese term: Wen 揾
Japanese term: Koshi Guruma

​

This is the exact training I would do with my student to help train the application of horse stance in movement. The only difference is that for us, I never allowed students feet to come together. I would tell students that their feet should never "Talk to each other." They should never come close.

When feet come together, you become more at risk for being swept. If you look at Judo a lot of their sweeps occure when the feet are close together or as the feet are coming close together.

Horse stance used to throw

 

[Gyakuto]

But research has also found that it has a positive effect on lowering blood pressure

It seems I was incorrect

Static isometric exercise, such as wall sits, best for lowering blood pressure - BMJ Group

But squats, press-ups, high intensity interval training (HIIT), and ‘cardio’ also effective Review of current exercise guidelines for controlling blood pressure may now be warranted Static isometric exercises—the sort that involve engaging muscles without movement, such as wall sits and...

bmjgroup.com

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is the exact training I would do with my student to help train the application of horse stance in movement. The only difference is that for us, I never allowed students feet to come together. I would tell students that their feet should never "Talk to each other." They should never come close.

When feet come together, you become more at risk for being swept. If you look at Judo a lot of their sweeps occure when the feet are close together or as the feet are coming close together.
View attachment 31503

Horse stance used to throw

Also, training to move the horse in this way adds stability to your low kicks and sweeps. You need 5 or 6 machines in the gym to get the same. Not saying you can’t build similar strength in the gym, but you won’t have the application that gets built by moving the stance. How many times have you seen people that kick and fall down when they make a heavy impact? How many body builders will have a root? Just because the strength is there doesn’t mean they get the skill. You work out with people who don’t use the horse, what is your take on this?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just curious what your records are at horse stance. I'm not that good yet my pr was 1minute 54 seconds. I haven't been able to break the 2min mark yet. I've heard stories from an old instructor "the monks used to do this in the hot sun for 2 hours" that shocked me and inspired me to add this challenge at the end of my workouts. I don't know how true those claims were but they must of been some tuff dudes to do this for 2 hrs. I do it for almost 2min and my legs are like jello after for a few minutes. This is the one exercise I think is universal in all martial arts, both strikers and grapplers can get benefit from it.

When I did a lot of stance training, before Knee replacement....20 minutes

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not saying you can’t build similar strength in the gym, but you won’t have the application that gets built by moving the stance.

Very true. Machines don't teach movement. The one thing I try to include with my weight training is to do exercises that include as many muscle groups as possible. Things like planks (difficult for me.) force me to use more than just muscles from my arms and my chest. Then I also use Plant Walk outs with variation

My variation is that I include one or two push-ups and a 5 second plank hold. When I return to standing position. I stretch upwards as if I'm trying to touch the ceiling without taking my heels off the ground. When I reach, I reach as far as I can then I try to elongate my spine by reaching up with my torso. I suck my stomach in and try to "sit up straight" while standing. It's that same type of feeling but it's done while standing.

There are machines that work the same groups of muscles but not at the same time and using the same motion for the same length of time that is done during the motion.

This is the trend I've noticed. More non-martial artists are doing horse stance than martial artist. There are tons of videos like this on youtube. They outnumber the martial arts videos about the horse stance.

I do this one at home with resistance bands, but I don't squat this low. I also do my horse stance with right foot forward and left foot forward as if I dropped to grab my opponent's leg to pull his feet from under him. Or if I drop my weight and pull my opponent to the ground.

Resistance Band have become my favorite weight training tool.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How many times have you seen people that kick and fall down when they make a heavy impact?

I see this all the time in the bag room with kicking and punching. They punch or kick the heavy bag and the bag kicks or punches them off. In short it looks like they are bouncing off the bag instead of sending their energy through the bag.

How many body builders will have a root?

That's a good question. Unfortunately, there aren't any Body builders trying kung fu or any other striking martial art. I did however read an article about a football player who trained Tai Chi to help him with football.

if body builders aren't using their root in similar ways then they probably don't have a good root. Similar to strikers who appear to have a good root get thrown into a sparring match and lose badly. If you only watch the feet in this video, you can quickly see when and how often he loses his root.

It's always the same story. No footwork is the result of bad root.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If the body builders or martial arts aren't learning mobility + root then it will show in their footwork.

Static root is one thing. Root while moving is different.

I'm not saying that Body Builders can't develop root, But I am saying that they probably won't develop it if all they do is lift weight. The biggest athletes who have good root are often those who train static and dynamic root mobility.

People say that horse stance makes you only strong in one position. This is true if we are only doing horse static horse stance. In Jow ga we did 3 types of horse stance training.
1. The first was static with no movement.
2. Starting at static then pushing up and dropping to static position.
3. Start at static and lower push up into static. position.

If you take a look at Mike Tysons legs, his legs are basically in the static horse stance position with slight upward pushes and drops. Doing full leg squats will not make your legs strong enough to hold that position. I've known many people who have killer leg squats but struggle at wall squats which are easier than martial arts horse stance. I could go to sleep doing a wall squat because I can push into the wall and sort of lock my knees where the wall helps me to stand up. I cannot do the same with a horse stance.

Another drill where he never comes out of horse

present day Mike Tyson

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I did a lot of stance training, before Knee replacement....20 minutes

lol the only things I can do for 20 minutes or more are
1. Drive
2. Sleep
3. Breathe
4. Walk
5. Sit (which is why I got the problems I have now)

I think my longest was 2 minutes and I was satisfied with that and then I lost interest in trying to go beyond that. I don't know how you guys do that stance for as long as you do.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

lol the only things I can do for 20 minutes or more are
1. Drive
2. Sleep
3. Breathe
4. Walk
5. Sit (which is why I got the problems I have now)

I think my longest was 2 minutes and I was satisfied with that and then I lost interest in trying to go beyond that. I don't know how you guys do that stance for as long as you do.

It helps to have an 86 year old standing over the 28 year old you, telling you to “quit if want.”

 

[Xue Sheng]

lol the only things I can do for 20 minutes or more are
1. Drive
2. Sleep
3. Breathe
4. Walk
5. Sit (which is why I got the problems I have now)

I think my longest was 2 minutes and I was satisfied with that and then I lost interest in trying to go beyond that. I don't know how you guys do that stance for as long as you do.

My Xingyiquan Shigong said if you can't stand in Santi Shi for 20 minutes, you are not even a beginner. Use to do a lot of stance training in the more hardcore Xingyiquan days. Use to do a standing routine, of various stances that took more than an hour. Of course, I was single and working second and third shift then and had no other life

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know how you guys do that stance for as long as you do.

The pain is the same for everybody. Whether your body can take that pain or not is the key. Don't think about your body. Try to put your mind in something else. For example, if you watch TV when you sit in horse stance, you will get better result. The more that TV program is interested to you, the longer that you can stay in your horse stance.

Here is a question for everybody.

- A spends 20 minutes in horse stance.
- B spends 20 minutes in hip throw solo.

Who will get more training benefit?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The pain is the same for everybody. Whether your body can take that pain or not is the key. Don't think about your body. Try to put your mind in something else. For example, if you watch TV when you sit in horse stance, you will get better result. The more that TV program is interested to you, the longer that you can stay in your horse stance.

Here is a question for everybody.

- A spends 20 minutes in horse stance.
- B spends 20 minutes in hip throw solo.

Who will get more training benefit?

Again, depends on what you are after