How do you test your MA skill without using the sport format?

[MetalBoar]

Non-sports Fighting as a teaching tool is unsustainable. You will quickly get to the point where you will either hate it or will be unable to continue due to injuries. Boxers tend to have longer fighting careers than MMA fighters. The closer it gets to fighting without rules the less desirable it would be. Image if there was no ref to stop the fight. How many broken bones and destroyed joints will you accept before you say it's not worth it.

So, I agree with your point here and I like your post, so this isn't a criticism.

It does make me wonder, once again, what constitutes a "sport format" for participants in this thread. I think a lot of disagreement and confusion comes from unstated assumptions about what is or isn't a "sport format".

From my perspective, I'm not sure you're doing Jow Ga in a sports format if you're not competing or at least training as if you were competing in free style, Sanda, MMA or some sort of martial arts tournament with a specific rule set. If we say that anything but full contact, no holds barred training is the only thing that isn't "sport format" or that everything but forms is "sport format", then it leaves very little to discuss. I don't think many people advocate training full contact all the time and very few people would say that doing forms exclusively will produce quality fighters.

So where's the line between "sport format" and not?

 

[isshinryuronin]

A lot of good responses and comparisons in this thread. Isshinryuronin brought up some valid points in my opinion. When fighting in the real world the dirtier the better; niceties have no place there nor does "honorable or fair". In a real fight one MUST become absolutely brutal which can't be precisely practiced in the ring or dojo. In my 60 years of martial arts training I've always avoided any physical conflict unless absolutely necessary. The closest I've come to "fighting" as a training practice is in boxing. Many years ago I served as a sparring partner for a boxer/ring fighter. He liked sparring with me because I was equally adept at orthodox and southpaw. I liked it because I could really hit and use my power unlike dojo sparring.

Any training is beneficial even if only very slightly or tremendously so. I've trained with high ranking black belts who could do excellent kata and never forget anything they were taught. But when I set up scenarios by grabbing them from behind, choking them, grabbing a hand or arm or pushing them backwards they froze up and wasted critical long moments. This is self-destruction on the street. The Boy Scouts said it best: Be Prepared!

SIXTY years?! That beats my 55 (with a couple of layoffs). MA, at least TMA, is indeed a lifelong pursuit for some. Sure beats watching the grass grow and getting old. I think I'll be good till I'm eighty.

You mentioned your past use of both right and left leads. I (not a boxer) never understood why southpaw is looked down upon in boxing as a more dangerous stance. I worked a little with one of Kenny Norton's sparring partners who once tried to explain it to me - let's just say I couldn't grasp the concept. It seems to me that any disadvantage or advantage would be reciprocal, depending on who could best capitalized on it. In karate, being ambidextrous and able to switch leads is a huge plus.

A surprise grab that ties you up from behind is certainly tough to handle. Defender's reaction must be immediate, each fraction of a second reduces the chance of escape/counter. I think a lot of repetition, including "surprise" attacks, is needed to become skillful, as you cannot see the approach or tip off of what might be on the way and must make your move at the first touch (hopefully it's not your wife coming up with a hug.) I will admit it's not my strong point (rear body grabs, not hugs - I'm good at those.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

From my perspective, I'm not sure you're doing Jow Ga in a sports format if you're not competing or at least training as if you were competing in free style, Sanda, MMA or some sort of martial arts tournament with a specific rule set. If we say that anything but full contact, no holds barred training is the only thing that isn't "sport format" or that everything but forms is "sport format", then it leaves very little to discuss. I don't think many people advocate training full contact all the time and very few people would say that doing forms exclusively will produce quality fighters.

So where's the line between "sport format" and not?

For me this is simple. In terms of fighting there's non-sports, there's sports, and then there's the gray that's in between.

Sports format - Anything that is done in the spirit of competition. Rules exist.

The grey stuff in between. This contains a little bit of both in between.

Then there's non-sport format - This is going to be your most brutal. Where you goal is to execute the technique and injury without a set of rules of engagement. You just go at it until someone calls it quit due to pain, injury or being tired. It's possible to train this way but your defense better be on point. You'll need it to defend against things like eye pokes, arm breaks, dislocations, etc. Most people fight with the assumption that your sparring partner will not try certain things. But to fully test one's defense, you need your partner to also try the dirty fighting stuff as well. I could probably fight like this maybe once or twice. By the third time I know I'm going to dread it easily. To spend weeks in pain and recovery isn't fun. It takes away from training and increases the risk of permanent damage.

non-sport fighting and training care about the outcome by any means necessary. It's not for fun. I'm often targeting areas that would be illegal in sport. I'm often emotionless but focused. I visualize the strike but not the damage it may cause. Being focused allows me to minimize injuries while I'm seeing real opportunities of attacks. Me regulating things by choice is me setting rules for myself. But they aren't predetermined. When I pull a punch I didn't predetermine that the punch would need to be pulled. Usually it happens a split second after I feel myself getting ready to lay everything into that strike.

It's hard to explain but I'm sure everyone has sparred with someone where you saw that opportunity to attack as clear as day and your mind says, throw that strike 100% and just as quick as those instructions prep the muscles for the strike, the command to pull the punch follows. The end result is that you save your sparring partner's life lol.

 

[drop bear]

But hey, I've not done much MMA nor BJJ training, maybe it makes every one of you guys kinesthetic geniuses with perfect situational awareness who never fall into the trap of reacting reflexively the way you've trained for thousands of hours even when it's the wrong response.

Yeah. This pretty much.

 

[jayoliver00]

Can’t say that I would agree with any of this. But that’s just me. One’s mileage may vary.

You should make an argument.

 

[jayoliver00]

Non-sports Fighting as a teaching tool is unsustainable. You will quickly get to the point where you will either hate it or will be unable to continue due to injuries. Boxers tend to have longer fighting careers than MMA fighters. The closer it gets to fighting without rules the less desirable it would be. Image if there was no ref to stop the fight. How many broken bones and destroyed joints will you accept before you say it's not worth it.

Aside from MMA and Boxing, these reality people usually only Larp their deadly techniques though. Just pretend strikes to the eyes, throat, testicles, etc. so it shouldn't be that damaging and unfortunately, not too effective when a situation happens for real.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. This pretty much.

I mean it is the sports format that effectively teaches that kinesthetic genius.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. So to the point of being able to say, groin kick a guy but having never trained it. (Now that I have a bit more time)

There are two ways to learn to fight.

You can be shown a technique and how it is set up and drill that. And then if you are in a fight and you meet those requirements then you can perform that technique.

Or you are taught a concept and you play with these concepts from weird positions untill you get a general sense of what you can achieve pretty much on the fly.

So the general chaotic or play factor of sparring will not only teach you to reproduce what you have trained in drills but to create and invent on the fly.

So here is some MMA sparring from high quality guys.

To drill and create a solution to every single problem that they might encounter would take too long. So to a certain degree they don't. They have an understanding of how movement and timing works. Through this sparring dynamic. And will apply these general ideas to create technique.

So we go back to groin shots. It isn't that big an ask to expect these guy to defend their groin or attack someone else's. Without having to spend hours training it.

 

[jobo]

Again, the exact opposite of my point. You're having some imaginary argument with some guy who told you that his art is better than yours because he's a nut smacking wizard or something. That's not what I said and I don't care how how many people you've won that argument with, that's still not my point.

What I've said is that if you train exclusively for a rule set where you aren't allowed to sweep your opponent's feet, or you wear gloves that are so protective that there's no reason to worry about your hands getting injured, or both (you wear a cup AND your groin isn't valid target area*) and you fail to acknowledge the implications and take it into consideration in your training you may very well be more likely to get swept, or your hands busted up, or your nuts kicked, if you go about business as usual, without your armor, and your opponent isn't playing by the same rules.

Telling someone in advance that you're going to kick them in the nuts or sweep their feet is exactly not the situation I'm talking about because then their brain can be engaged rather than simply their habits and muscle memory.

But hey, I've not done much MMA nor BJJ training, maybe it makes every one of you guys kinesthetic geniuses with perfect situational awareness who never fall into the trap of reacting reflexively the way you've trained for thousands of hours even when it's the wrong response. It could also be that since you are or were a bouncer that you've got another set of training under a different rule set that keeps you from the kind of nearsightedness I'm describing. Maybe I'm just completely full of it or it's something you feel is of such negligible impact that it's not worth considering. If so, that's great, but please address what I'm saying and not that imaginary nut smacking wizard guy you've been arguing with.

*yes, I know, cups aren't perfect protection and neither are lacrosse gloves.

your creating problems that probebly arnt there

if we take someone who is say a reasonable boxer

they are going to be well above average fit, specificaly they ate fit for 5he intensity of fighting, which gives them an advantage over other types of fitness, they will have good ballance and reactions, they will come out of most situations well on top, the fact they dont have huge gloves on is no sort of impediment to them, on 5he contrary it opens up increased speed and an ability to hold their opponent,

my 13 year old niece, who admittedly is a robust child, does boxing and weight training, she would quickly dispatch most adult males

she is stronger than most males has significantly better cardio and she can punch.

 

[Flying Crane]

You should make an argument.

Why? I suppose you believe what you wrote and I doubt I will convince you otherwise. So I’m just saying, I don’t find anything to agree with there. MMA training is the pinnacle? Bah! Nonsense. But if you like it, then you should do it. It’s a good thing for you.

A UFC championship is the ultimate achievement? Bah! Nonsense. But if you want that accomplishment, if it is important to you, then you should work towards it.

but none of those things is objectively the pinnacle of martial training. No such objective pinnacle exists. Do what you enjoy. Don’t project your desires into others.

 

[bobbyboynyc]

When I said, "Sport is the path, combat is the goal". Some people may not agree that "Sport is the path". What's the other option besides using the sport format to test you MA skill?

Your thought?

Keep your eyes open, always be ready to defend the weak and helpless. Don't form the bad habit of pulling your punches, which sport sparring engenders.

 

[jayoliver00]

Why? I suppose you believe what you wrote and I doubt I will convince you otherwise. So I’m just saying, I don’t find anything to agree with there. MMA training is the pinnacle? Bah! Nonsense. But if you like it, then you should do it. It’s a good thing for you.

A UFC championship is the ultimate achievement? Bah! Nonsense. But if you want that accomplishment, if it is important to you, then you should work towards it.

but none of those things is objectively the pinnacle of martial training. No such objective pinnacle exists. Do what you enjoy. Don’t project your desires into others.

Here are simple questions that prove my point.

What can you do with your style & how you train that a UFC fighter can't replicate if they wanted to.

While you certainly can't do what they can do, even at the Amateur level of say, at least 5 Amateur MMA fights.

 

[jayoliver00]

Don't form the bad habit of pulling your punches, which sport sparring engenders.

Wait, so you spar full power, all the time?

And you don't know the application for pulling punches in a fight, whether in the ring or in the street?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here are simple questions that prove my point.

What can you do with your style & how you train that a UFC fighter can't replicate if they wanted to.

While you certainly can't do what they can do, even at the Amateur level of say, at least 5 Amateur MMA fights.

Why would any of this matter?

 

[jobo]

Here are simple questions that prove my point.

What can you do with your style & how you train that a UFC fighter can't replicate if they wanted to.

While you certainly can't do what they can do, even at the Amateur level of say, at least 5 Amateur MMA fights.

what can said inexsperience amateur do that I cant ?

I've told the story before, of when two mma fighters stamped into the dojo and offered every one out, I would have tried my luck, but floyd was there, built like a light heavyweight boxer with gang tats, you could see it wasnt what he was exspecting,the colour drained from his face,he hit him once and that was that, the other guy picked h9m up and they left,,

floyd was on the bare knuckle circuit, so not really karate, but so really really funny

 

[drop bear]

Why would any of this matter?

Subjectively everyone is at the pinnacle of martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

what can said inexsperience amateur do that I cant ?

I've told the story before, of when two mma fighters stamped into the dojo and offered every one out, I would have tried my luck, but floyd was there, built like a light heavyweight boxer with gang tats, you could see it wasnt what he was exspecting,the colour drained from his face,he hit him once and that was that, the other guy picked h9m up and they left,,

floyd was on the bare knuckle floyd, but so really really funny

Back their stories up with evidence.

 

[jayoliver00]

Why would any of this matter?

In the context of this post that the OP started; which you voluntarily engaged my argument directly, is why it matters.

As it proves that what you train, can easily be replicated by a UFC Fighter (if they wanted to) and therefore, proving my point about training MMA being the highest level of MA training and being a UFC Champion, is the highest achievement in the MA's.

And vice versa, you are unable to train the way that a UFC Fighter does.

 

[jayoliver00]

what can said inexsperience amateur do that I cant ?

I've told the story before, of when two mma fighters stamped into the dojo and offered every one out, I would have tried my luck, but floyd was there, built like a light heavyweight boxer with gang tats, you could see it wasnt what he was exspecting,the colour drained from his face,he hit him once and that was that, the other guy picked h9m up and they left,,

floyd was on the bare knuckle circuit, so not really karate, but so really really funny

That's nice, but I was comparing TMA's that don't fight full contact with that of MMA. I should've been more clear, so my error.

Sure, there are plenty of TMA fighters that can fight & do fight. While there are also MMA fighters with a 1-4 record. So Floyd fought for you, cool. Who knows how good those 2 MMA fighters were or were they really MMA fighters. And people who usually "stamped into the dojo and offered every one out", usually are drunk and/or can't fight. Sounds like an episode of Cobra Kai.

 

[Steve]

Subjectively everyone is at the pinnacle of martial arts.

I imagine Richard Simmons is the pinnacle of martial arts, and the thought makes me happy. He did defeat a trained MMA fighter once.... Sort of.