How do you test techniques at your dojang?

Maybe turn the question around a little. Instead of asking "How should I test a technique?" Ask: "What kind of Martial Artist am I hoping to train?" "Who am I training?" Answering these questions should help you figure out how to test your students.

Who are you training?
In my opinion, if you are teaching 4-6 year olds... what you teach and what you are expecting them to learn should be different from adults. Therefore, their tests should be different. 9-12 year olds should be trained and tested differently, as should teens, and then adults. This then leads to the first question, of what kind of training are you going for? What are you hoping to teach each of these groups?

What kind of Martial Artist are you training?
If you are training martial artists to go into musical TKD forms contests... then your test should be about the TKD forms, and specifically around the points that bring the high scores in those contests. If you are training TKD point fighting contestants, then your tests should reflect the skills needed to win those fights. If you are teaching full contact, knock down fight contestants... your testing should be different here as well.

Are you teaching hobbyists martial artist? Are you teaching people looking to get into shape? Or someone hoping to fight MMA? I would have different tests for each of these groups... as in they are looking for different things.

You and I frequently collide about how deep we think the TKD forms go and how connected they may be to TKD sparring and real fighting. I tend to think that these forms go very deep, and encompass quite a few things beyond the label. I feel that much of this is for the student to learn and explore, under the teachers guidance. Since I would want students going deep, and exploring for themselves... my tests would reflect that in some way. Have the student show things they have found in the forms. Or have the student apply that part of the form as a punch first, then as a grip escape. You tend to have the view that its all there on the surface, and labelled exactly what it is. If that is the type of martial artists you are hoping to train, then your testing would look very different then my tests, even if they were tests over the same material. (Note: I am not trying to open that argument again... we have plenty of threads on that already... just trying to offer some advice on how to go about constructing your tests, is all)

Once you figure out who you are training, and what type of martial artists you want them to become, you will find a lot of answers about how to go about testing them. Realize that if your school covers a wide range of ages, your tests should be of and equally large range. Just because you want to compete in forms, doesn't mean you won't also compete in sparring. However, knowing how much emphasis you place on form competition verses sparring competition verses MMA competition results, will then modify the amount of time you spend train for each result and will then modify what you want to see in the testing.

Hopefully this helps.
 
@wab25 definitely things to consider. However, at this point I'm trying to figure out how to make the test work the way I want it to, more than I'm trying to figure out what I want in the test.
 
I think we're talking about two different things. If you differentiate between "technique" and "gross skill" and consider a full kick to be a "gross skill", do you not consider a kick to be a technique?
Yes, but not in the vein of your original question as you seemed to be inquiring about the ability to critique individual components.

The footwork used in most forms is not the type of footwork you would combine with strikes in a real situation. The footwork in forms gets slightly more power at a huge cost in speed and maneuverability. The footwork is good for transitioning into a throw, but not for throwing punch and kick combinations.
This is an inherent flaw in the way Kukki forms are too often taught, or more correctly, the lack of teaching. I find most all footwork techniques are in the forms we teach somewhere. It is true that forms may not be the best tool for drilling a specific move or component on it's own.

I think we're talking about two different things here. For example, our #1 kicking is front kick and 1-2 punch. We'll do both sides over and over again. We may not start with #1, we may do a bunch of other ones first. However, whenever my Master says "Kicking #1", we all have rote memorized what our next 3 techniques are going to be.
I think it is the same for most schools/systems. They just do not associate a number to the movement(s).

(Using the example I used of a roundhouse kick followed by a tornado kick). If you wanted to see me do a kick, replace my foot behind me and tornado kick the other direction, but I did a roundhouse kick, landed in front of me, and did the tornado kick, would you simply say "do it again" until I figured out what you want to see? Or would you provide feedback "not that direction, the other direction"?

My Master does the former during testing, but we also have rote memorized what our combinations are supposed to be.
I would not provide feedback during a testing. At least not right away. Hence, the test. Sometimes people just need to noodle a problem out. Seeing the ability to do this on their own has a great value for both instructor and student. If they blank out and cannot move forward, we would then offer suggestions/direction. Most often we would expect them to be able to show an alternate solution using the same tools if they do not follow the first challenge correctly.
What I mean is if the kick is done for speed (i.e. looks like it would be most likely to score a point in point sparring), power (would probably hurt most if hit by it), or form (graceful, precise, controlled).
 
This is an inherent flaw in the way Kukki forms are too often taught, or more correctly, the lack of teaching. I find most all footwork techniques are in the forms we teach somewhere. It is true that forms may not be the best tool for drilling a specific move or component on it's own.

The style of footwork used in all of the forms I've learned is not at all congruent with the type of footwork used with the kicks in WT sparring, nor the punches in boxing. Slides and skips are non-existent, it's almost all steps and stance changes. That's not to say there isn't a place for the footwork in the KKW forms. I just think there's more footwork in TKD than what the forms teach. (Kind of like how students learn Social Studies in school, but there's more classes than just Social Studies).

I think it is the same for most schools/systems. They just do not associate a number to the movement(s).

Are you saying most schools have combinations you're expected to know before the test?
In this case "know" is that you have it memorized and know specifically which combination will be on the test; not just that the student can do the combination if described.
 
However, at this point I'm trying to figure out how to make the test work the way I want it to, more than I'm trying to figure out what I want in the test.
Can you explain this more?

Rereading the 6 questions you asked in the OP, I would answer them differently, depending on what my goals were. If I wanted to make a team form competition team, the test would involve group testing, to see if they could keep in sync and have proper form. If my goals were around individual competition, then individual testing would be better, with even more attention paid to the details. I could have the student pass off the basic techniques before the test, during the classes, then only test the required forms... expecting them to show the proper details in the techniques they have signed off. After running through the forms, I would have them use a heavy bag to look at power and speed.

If I wanted self defense oriented goals instead of form competition... I would be looking for different things. Maybe I have them do defenses from attacks, then a bunch of heavy bag work. Then once they are soaked with sweet and sucking wind, now make them do their longest form. Here the grading is based on application and amount of force. (they should have broke the bag in half) Here I want to see if they can control their breathing, control their body and think straight all while exhausted... where above, I wanted to see perfect precision in the form.

As I see it, what you want to see in your student, helps define how you test them and what you look for in that test. Without defining what "good" looks like, how would you know if the student did "good" on the test?
 
Can you explain this more?

Rereading the 6 questions you asked in the OP, I would answer them differently, depending on what my goals were. If I wanted to make a team form competition team, the test would involve group testing, to see if they could keep in sync and have proper form. If my goals were around individual competition, then individual testing would be better, with even more attention paid to the details. I could have the student pass off the basic techniques before the test, during the classes, then only test the required forms... expecting them to show the proper details in the techniques they have signed off. After running through the forms, I would have them use a heavy bag to look at power and speed.

If I wanted self defense oriented goals instead of form competition... I would be looking for different things. Maybe I have them do defenses from attacks, then a bunch of heavy bag work. Then once they are soaked with sweet and sucking wind, now make them do their longest form. Here the grading is based on application and amount of force. (they should have broke the bag in half) Here I want to see if they can control their breathing, control their body and think straight all while exhausted... where above, I wanted to see perfect precision in the form.

As I see it, what you want to see in your student, helps define how you test them and what you look for in that test. Without defining what "good" looks like, how would you know if the student did "good" on the test?

I'm looking for the mechanism by which to test the techniques. One where the combinations don't have to be rote memorized, but that I can give the commands without any confusion.
 
I could be wrong (and re-reading it, maybe I was) but I read his post to mean that focusing on specific combinations could be bad in the long run.



What I'm trying to figure out is how to test something beyond just the simplest form. For example, even with just roundhouse kicks, I'm looking for a testing mechanism where I could test things like:
  • Roundhouse kick into tornado kick
  • Roundhouse kick, return the leg and tornado kick the other way
  • Footwork moving forward, backward, or laterally in combination with the kick
I'd be focusing on combinations of 1-3 kicks with various types of footwork in class, and I'm trying to figure out how to translate that into a test.



At my current school, we have that, because my Master has all of the techniques numbered. Although for the most part, we do ALL of them, just not necessarily in order. We may not do everything else in the curriculum, though.

However, I'm trying to get away from rote memorized numbers. Using the example above, if I say "roundhouse kick, return and tornado kick", I might be looking for specific footwork, and they might understand it slightly different and do the combo differently. (This is based on how well people copy our dynamic combos in sparring drills).



This is definitely something I plan to do. We have these sheets as well. I'm just trying to figure out how to go from all the stuff in class to making the test itself actually work.
I have some thoughts for you - Iā€™ll try to remember to reply tomorrow when Iā€™m not on my phone.
 
The style of footwork used in all of the forms I've learned is not at all congruent with the type of footwork used with the kicks in WT sparring, nor the punches in boxing. Slides and skips are non-existent, it's almost all steps and stance changes. That's not to say there isn't a place for the footwork in the KKW forms. I just think there's more footwork in TKD than what the forms teach. (Kind of like how students learn Social Studies in school, but there's more classes than just Social Studies).



Are you saying most schools have combinations you're expected to know before the test?
In this case "know" is that you have it memorized and know specifically which combination will be on the test; not just that the student can do the combination if described.
I cannot follow. You said your school numbers your drills/moves. How would you Not know the corresponding movements for a given number if you thought it was part of your testing? To my knowledge, All schools have combinations a person is expected to know before testing, at least to some degree of competency.
We use the specific name(s) in both English and Korean. The curriculum and teachers let people know what they need to know for their next testing and they are expected to know terminology before testing.
 
I


I'm looking for the mechanism by which to test the techniques. One where the combinations don't have to be rote memorized, but that I can give the commands without any confusion.




Well you can borrow extrapolated terms from the Chang Hon System. Double - Triple = same kick same leg done multiple times. Combination = Use one limb then the other. Consecutive = Same Limb- Different kicks. Example " Right leg back - Combination kick starting with the rear leg. Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick" = 3 kicks changing legs each time. Or "Right leg back, kicking with the rear foot, Consecutive kick - advancing Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick.. = Right foot doing all 3 kicks without putting it down, then stepping down to the front so the next kick is with the left foot. Terms like "180" and "360" denote a jump, not just amount of rotation
 
Well you can borrow extrapolated terms from the Chang Hon System. Double - Triple = same kick same leg done multiple times. Combination = Use one limb then the other. Consecutive = Same Limb- Different kicks. Example " Right leg back - Combination kick starting with the rear leg. Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick" = 3 kicks changing legs each time. Or "Right leg back, kicking with the rear foot, Consecutive kick - advancing Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick.. = Right foot doing all 3 kicks without putting it down, then stepping down to the front so the next kick is with the left foot. Terms like "180" and "360" denote a jump, not just amount of rotation
 
All of the base punches and elbows are numbered, all knees and kicks are termed for students.
All strike combos are numbered using the base numbers and terms.

So taking punches only as an example with this particular numbering system
Jab or lunge punch = 1
Rear Straight or Cross or Reverse Punch = 2
Lead Hook = 3
Rear Upper Cut = 4
Lead Upper Cut = 5
Rear Hook = 6
Lead Overhand = 7
Rear Overhand = 8

A base Combo could be "123" (one twenty three) = Jab-Rear Straight-Lead Hook
or maybe "Level 123" = Level change during the striking. So that could = Jab head-Rear Straight body-Lead Hook Head.
Or = Jab body-Rear Straight Head-Lead Hook Liver

I have full combo sets which include punches, kicks, knees, elbow, clinching, striking in the clinch, sweeping or tripping in the clinch, getting out of the clinch and following up.
I use terms like "Junk Yard", "Baseball", "Gameplan", "Downtown", each of which are complete templates for: Set up, the actual attack, a contingency if it doesn't work, a follow up, a finish, or a get out of Dodge while still countering attacking.
 
I cannot follow. You said your school numbers your drills/moves. How would you Not know the corresponding movements for a given number if you thought it was part of your testing? To my knowledge, All schools have combinations a person is expected to know before testing, at least to some degree of competency.
We use the specific name(s) in both English and Korean. The curriculum and teachers let people know what they need to know for their next testing and they are expected to know terminology before testing.

This is what my current school does. I'm looking to what I want to do when I'm in charge, which is to focus less on rote memorization.

Well you can borrow extrapolated terms from the Chang Hon System. Double - Triple = same kick same leg done multiple times. Combination = Use one limb then the other. Consecutive = Same Limb- Different kicks. Example " Right leg back - Combination kick starting with the rear leg. Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick" = 3 kicks changing legs each time. Or "Right leg back, kicking with the rear foot, Consecutive kick - advancing Front Snap Kick, Side Turning Kick, Side Piercing kick.. = Right foot doing all 3 kicks without putting it down, then stepping down to the front so the next kick is with the left foot. Terms like "180" and "360" denote a jump, not just amount of rotation

This is something I'm considering. Another one of my hobbies is gaming (both board games and video games) and one tactic they use to simplify directions is key words. For example, in the game Dominion, any time something says "+1 Buy", that term has been defined in the rules, which makes it easier than putting "you can buy 1 additional card on your buy phase" onto the card.
 
I could be wrong (and re-reading it, maybe I was) but I read his post to mean that focusing on specific combinations could be bad in the long run.



What I'm trying to figure out is how to test something beyond just the simplest form. For example, even with just roundhouse kicks, I'm looking for a testing mechanism where I could test things like:
  • Roundhouse kick into tornado kick
  • Roundhouse kick, return the leg and tornado kick the other way
  • Footwork moving forward, backward, or laterally in combination with the kick
I'd be focusing on combinations of 1-3 kicks with various types of footwork in class, and I'm trying to figure out how to translate that into a test.



At my current school, we have that, because my Master has all of the techniques numbered. Although for the most part, we do ALL of them, just not necessarily in order. We may not do everything else in the curriculum, though.

However, I'm trying to get away from rote memorized numbers. Using the example above, if I say "roundhouse kick, return and tornado kick", I might be looking for specific footwork, and they might understand it slightly different and do the combo differently. (This is based on how well people copy our dynamic combos in sparring drills).



This is definitely something I plan to do. We have these sheets as well. I'm just trying to figure out how to go from all the stuff in class to making the test itself actually work.
Some thoughts on things you said, mostly in this post. Some of this is stuff I've been thinking about for my own testing.

Firstly, I think testing the most basic form is valid for the beginner (at that technique - someone who only recently learned it). After that, I look to test something more closely approximating application. It's tough to test actual application, since that'd require them managing the technique against someone who knows it's coming - either that person plays compliant, or the technique likely fails. So how do we get closer? With striking, I think that involves adding targets, some of them moving. So, maybe a short set of combos that show they can do the most important strikes (hand and foot) and footwork/level changes for that rank. Those could be tested against focus mitts. If you need to test multiple people at once (I've never had to do that, so I think first of solo testing), then also teach the students the mitt-holding side, so half are doing the combo, while the other half do the mitts.

A note on testing footwork. If you test their movement, the footwork should be a natural result, if they've been practicing (you've been teaching) using it appropriately. So, if I want to see a specific set of footwork, I simply request a combination that makes it the best choice within their training with me. If they manage to put in different footwork, I have to decide whether that's an adequate alternative demonstration (does their choice still demonstrate the principles I'm looking to test?) or do I ask them to do it with different footwork. My point is that I don't really care about the specific footwork - I care about the effect it has. So, if someone uses a different stance in transition, I'm probably okay with that, if their choices use the principles I'm testing.

I hope some of that shakes some ideas loose for you.
 
Firstly, I think testing the most basic form is valid for the beginner (at that technique - someone who only recently learned it). After that, I look to test something more closely approximating application. It's tough to test actual application, since that'd require them managing the technique against someone who knows it's coming - either that person plays compliant, or the technique likely fails. So how do we get closer? With striking, I think that involves adding targets, some of them moving. So, maybe a short set of combos that show they can do the most important strikes (hand and foot) and footwork/level changes for that rank. Those could be tested against focus mitts. If you need to test multiple people at once (I've never had to do that, so I think first of solo testing), then also teach the students the mitt-holding side, so half are doing the combo, while the other half do the mitts.

I definitely agree about beginners; also the problem with testing grappling techniques. Most of my experience as a judge during testing is that test groups often range from 10-30 people at a time. Every testing week we usually have 60-80 students test, in 5-6 separate tests across 3 or 4 days. I couldn't imagine doing all of those individually! (Nor do I imagine having nearly as big a school when I run one).

Holding targets for kicks is a lot different than for punches. In my experience, it's a lot less intuitive, especially with combination kicks. We'll have students of most levels hold kicking shields, but there's only a small group of instructors that are comfortable with the paddle targets.

One thing I've thought of is to place a target (such as a standing kicking dummy) and have the student start from a certain point and then execute the technique.

A note on testing footwork. If you test their movement, the footwork should be a natural result, if they've been practicing (you've been teaching) using it appropriately. So, if I want to see a specific set of footwork, I simply request a combination that makes it the best choice within their training with me. If they manage to put in different footwork, I have to decide whether that's an adequate alternative demonstration (does their choice still demonstrate the principles I'm looking to test?) or do I ask them to do it with different footwork. My point is that I don't really care about the specific footwork - I care about the effect it has. So, if someone uses a different stance in transition, I'm probably okay with that, if their choices use the principles I'm testing.

I think that can work for punches, but for the kicks it's a bit different. I also think this is a big reason why only staying in orthodox stance like boxing wouldn't work for Taekwondo, and why we have to train both sides, is that through the nature of kicking you're constantly changing from orthodox to southpaw. For example, if I wanted someone to demonstrate moving backwards and countering with a roundhouse, do I mean:
  • Slide back with both feet and then roundhouse
  • Step backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pivot backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pop roundhouse kick while moving backwards
  • Lean back and lead-leg roundhouse
Maybe the specifics aren't as necessary for the test. Or maybe I want to test the different methods. If the group is demonstrating in line together, I don't want one person to take a big slide backwards while the other person just leans back.

---
I'm kind of driving myself crazy thinking about this. I have ideas for how I want to do things, but I at least want to have this mechanism figured out before I explore it deeper. And of course, this is all hypothetical at this point. I may get done going over everything and just decide it's not a good training model and scrap everything. I may end up not opening my own school. I don't know. What I do know is I'd like to at least figure this out and have it on-hand for when I do explore the idea of creating my own curriculum further.
 
For example, if I wanted someone to demonstrate moving backwards and countering with a roundhouse, do I mean:
  • Slide back with both feet and then roundhouse
  • Step backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pivot backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pop roundhouse kick while moving backwards
  • Lean back and lead-leg roundhouse
Why would you not just give these verbal directives? I assume you do these in organized drills, else how would you know the naming conventions? That said, these are the kind of specifics I look for in someone's sparring. Know the 'why' is much more important than just knowing the 'how' or name of a technique. For example, your list is a perfect example of covering/creating space. It could be a great set of techniques to drill together to teach the differences and when each should be used.
 
Why would you not just give these verbal directives? I assume you do these in organized drills, else how would you know the naming conventions? That said, these are the kind of specifics I look for in someone's sparring. Know the 'why' is much more important than just knowing the 'how' or name of a technique. For example, your list is a perfect example of covering/creating space. It could be a great set of techniques to drill together to teach the differences and when each should be used.

When doing the drill in class, someone is usually demonstrating it. Either the instructor is, or the instructor has one person demonstrate so they can say "no, slide this way for this drill".

I agree it would be something to look for in sparring. But sometimes things just don't come up in sparring.
 
I definitely agree about beginners; also the problem with testing grappling techniques. Most of my experience as a judge during testing is that test groups often range from 10-30 people at a time. Every testing week we usually have 60-80 students test, in 5-6 separate tests across 3 or 4 days. I couldn't imagine doing all of those individually! (Nor do I imagine having nearly as big a school when I run one).

Holding targets for kicks is a lot different than for punches. In my experience, it's a lot less intuitive, especially with combination kicks. We'll have students of most levels hold kicking shields, but there's only a small group of instructors that are comfortable with the paddle targets.

One thing I've thought of is to place a target (such as a standing kicking dummy) and have the student start from a certain point and then execute the technique.



I think that can work for punches, but for the kicks it's a bit different. I also think this is a big reason why only staying in orthodox stance like boxing wouldn't work for Taekwondo, and why we have to train both sides, is that through the nature of kicking you're constantly changing from orthodox to southpaw. For example, if I wanted someone to demonstrate moving backwards and countering with a roundhouse, do I mean:
  • Slide back with both feet and then roundhouse
  • Step backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pivot backwards and then roundhouse
  • Pop roundhouse kick while moving backwards
  • Lean back and lead-leg roundhouse
Maybe the specifics aren't as necessary for the test. Or maybe I want to test the different methods. If the group is demonstrating in line together, I don't want one person to take a big slide backwards while the other person just leans back.

---
I'm kind of driving myself crazy thinking about this. I have ideas for how I want to do things, but I at least want to have this mechanism figured out before I explore it deeper. And of course, this is all hypothetical at this point. I may get done going over everything and just decide it's not a good training model and scrap everything. I may end up not opening my own school. I don't know. What I do know is I'd like to at least figure this out and have it on-hand for when I do explore the idea of creating my own curriculum further.
It sounds like youā€™re thinking the right things. Youā€™re being overly analytical, but I do that, too - itā€™s kind of a hobby. Youā€™ll get to the right answer in time. A few things that might help out... First, maybe try out some of your ideas on willing students who have passed a test and are interested in some extra challenge, if your CI is okay with it. And focus on what principles you want to ensure are taught. You canā€™t test everything, so focusing on the principles will help you limit what physical techniques you need to test.
 
It sounds like youā€™re thinking the right things. Youā€™re being overly analytical, but I do that, too - itā€™s kind of a hobby. Youā€™ll get to the right answer in time. A few things that might help out... First, maybe try out some of your ideas on willing students who have passed a test and are interested in some extra challenge, if your CI is okay with it. And focus on what principles you want to ensure are taught. You canā€™t test everything, so focusing on the principles will help you limit what physical techniques you need to test.

It's at least 10 years down the road, so I have time to be overly analytical.
 
It's at least 10 years down the road, so I have time to be overly analytical.
I did the same. I think my curriculum was 15 years in the making. Planning testing has taken more than 20 years so far. Maybe someday Iā€™ll have enough students Iā€™ll actually need to make a firm decision. :D
 
I did the same. I think my curriculum was 15 years in the making. Planning testing has taken more than 20 years so far. Maybe someday Iā€™ll have enough students Iā€™ll actually need to make a firm decision. :D

I think I'll either end up with no students or more students than I want. Ideally I'd have maybe 20-30 students spread between 2 classes. I'll probably end up either with somewhere around 2 students, or 60+. I don't think it will be in between.
 
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