Is Taekwondo progression all just memorization?

[skribs]

What makes testing difficult? Remembering the names?

Names? You people are getting names?

Let me give you an example of how a test would go at my school. This would be for a green belt to get blue.

Fighting stance. Show me Punching Number 1. (A combo that is punch, step, punch again). Ready, go. Two. Three. And turn! Number 1 again, go. Two. Three. And turn.
Show me Punching Number 2 (A combo that is jab-cross, step, punch again). Ready, go. (And keep going through Number 8).
Show me Punching Number 6! Number 4! Number 3! Turn! Number 7! Number 2! Number 1! Turn! Number 8! Number 5!...(You get the idea).
Show me Kicking Number 1. (Repeat the above for kicks).
Show me Palgwe #1. Go........Baro ('Baro' means 'return').
Then Palgwe #2, Palgwe #3.
Line 1 and Line 3 turn face your partner. Touch knuckle to knuckle. Chooni (ready position). Lines 1 and 3 take your right leg back, down block. Lines 2 and 4, punch defense #1. Ready, go! #2, go!. #3, go!. #4, go!. #5, go!. Lines 2 and 4, take your right leg back, down block. Lines 1 and 2, punch defense...
Line 1 and Line 3, right leg back, kicking stance. Lines 2 and 4, kick dense #1. (Then up to 5, then other side).

This is how the entire test goes. Tons and tons of techniques, all by number. Once you pass green belt at that school, I don't think you get told to do any techniques in testing by name. It's all numbers.

 

[drop bear]

True, but I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

If you parter is good he will lead you to do the technique right.

He falls in to side control. Gives you the right arm. And creates the pass opportunities for you.

You can basically bait people into throwing the move they are supposed to throw.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Names? You people are getting names?

Let me give you an example of how a test would go at my school. This would be for a green belt to get blue.

Fighting stance. Show me Punching Number 1. (A combo that is punch, step, punch again). Ready, go. Two. Three. And turn! Number 1 again, go. Two. Three. And turn.
Show me Punching Number 2 (A combo that is jab-cross, step, punch again). Ready, go. (And keep going through Number 8).
Show me Punching Number 6! Number 4! Number 3! Turn! Number 7! Number 2! Number 1! Turn! Number 8! Number 5!...(You get the idea).
Show me Kicking Number 1. (Repeat the above for kicks).
Show me Palgwe #1. Go........Baro ('Baro' means 'return').
Then Palgwe #2, Palgwe #3.
Line 1 and Line 3 turn face your partner. Touch knuckle to knuckle. Chooni (ready position). Lines 1 and 3 take your right leg back, down block. Lines 2 and 4, punch defense #1. Ready, go! #2, go!. #3, go!. #4, go!. #5, go!. Lines 2 and 4, take your right leg back, down block. Lines 1 and 2, punch defense...
Line 1 and Line 3, right leg back, kicking stance. Lines 2 and 4, kick dense #1. (Then up to 5, then other side).

This is how the entire test goes. Tons and tons of techniques, all by number. Once you pass green belt at that school, I don't think you get told to do any techniques in testing by name. It's all numbers.

I know some people have difficulty with names of techniques especially when it's in a foreign language.

 

[HighKick]

I've seen this pattern at a school I attended, (not the school in the video), and the KJN (a Korean) called it "kibon poomsae - basic pattern", as in the video. But that was the only "Kibon" poomsae at that school.

I would say this is the most common and widespread pattern used in all of the martial arts. We call it Ki Cho Hyung il bu or basic form one.

 

[MadMartigan]

Names? You people are getting names?

Let me give you an example of how a test would go at my school. This would be for a green belt to get blue.

Fighting stance. Show me Punching Number 1. (A combo that is punch, step, punch again). Ready, go. Two. Three. And turn! Number 1 again, go. Two. Three. And turn.
Show me Punching Number 2 (A combo that is jab-cross, step, punch again). Ready, go. (And keep going through Number 8).
Show me Punching Number 6! Number 4! Number 3! Turn! Number 7! Number 2! Number 1! Turn! Number 8! Number 5!...(You get the idea).
Show me Kicking Number 1. (Repeat the above for kicks).
Show me Palgwe #1. Go........Baro ('Baro' means 'return').
Then Palgwe #2, Palgwe #3.
Line 1 and Line 3 turn face your partner. Touch knuckle to knuckle. Chooni (ready position). Lines 1 and 3 take your right leg back, down block. Lines 2 and 4, punch defense #1. Ready, go! #2, go!. #3, go!. #4, go!. #5, go!. Lines 2 and 4, take your right leg back, down block. Lines 1 and 2, punch defense...
Line 1 and Line 3, right leg back, kicking stance. Lines 2 and 4, kick dense #1. (Then up to 5, then other side).

This is how the entire test goes. Tons and tons of techniques, all by number. Once you pass green belt at that school, I don't think you get told to do any techniques in testing by name. It's all numbers.

We've spoken around this topic before and I've always thought that this much rote memorization is the enemy of real skill building. Too much of the TKD world seems content to substitute needless complexity in place of true understanding of principles.

Whether you're practicing TKD, Karate, BJJ, or anything else, the saying I read somewhere recently holds true. 'There are no black belt techniques, only techniques done at a black belt level.'

Of course this doesn't mean that I teach jumping spinning kicks to white belts, but illustrates the point that everything comes back to basic fundamentals of movement. The hip alignment and method of power generation for a side kick are the same whether it is done from the front or back leg, jumping, and/or spinning.

As to the memorization, I'm a big proponent of how I was trained. While all sorts of areas are taught and practiced, our belt grading is focused primarily on measurable areas (fundamental movements/combos, patterns, and sparring).

Our White Belt test contains our basic 4 direction punch pattern and 11 fundamental movements done forward and back down the floor:
- 6 hand techniques (punch, down, up, inner forearm, knife hand blocks, and knife hand strike)
- 5 Kicking techniques (Front straight and snap, side straight and snap, & back kicks).
The only things the student need to memorize is the names of each move (generally built into what it's called... an up block is called an up block), and the single, simple pattern.

Sparring gets added to the test on subsequent belts, but the other sections remain essentially the same. Each belt level must perform the material for their belt, as well as the belt level before their current rank. This ends up looking like the following:

Red Belt going for Black Stripe (our last rank before testing for 1st dan black belt)

Floorwork (up and down the floor)
- All blue belt combinations
- Side snap with the back leg, then spinning heel kick
- Side snap (back leg), then jumping turn around side snap kick
- Double Kick
- Step back, turn around side snap kick.

- All Red Belt combinations
- Sliding Punch, Jumping Turning Kick (back leg)
- Double Kick (continuous) 2nd kick hooking
- Step back, spinning heel kick
- Jumping back kick (continuous)

Patterns
- Toi-Gye (Red Stripe)
- Hwa-Rang (Red Belt)

Free Sparring

The student is not expected to have the order of which floorwork combo is coming up next... only how to do the combo when it is called (not that hard when the name almost always exactly describes the move to be done).

I believe this frees the mind to focus on perfecting 'how' the move works, and when to use it... rather than just trying to remember 'what' blocking combo #6 was.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I've put you on Ignore because I completely distrust and disagree with you on pretty much everything you say.

So yes, I am dodging you. I'm going to go back to doing so.

Well if you continue talking about me to others (and misquoting me) then you can be sure I'm going to set the record straight. I'm not going to allow someone to defame me over and over again.

Otherwise I'm quite happy to ignore you as well.

I have found you to be ignorant, arrogant, un-coachable, and quite uninformed. I would never have you as a student.

You still have a lot to learn, but you think you know better than everyone else, so unfortunately you'll never get there.

 

[BaehrTKD]

One thing I've done (actually based on a comment you made a few years ago) is to try and make sure there isn't a whole lot in my curriculum that's going to be boring to test.

For example, instead of having white belts test on a form that's 90% "step forward and punch" and then test on blocks, just have the white belt form include all of the blocks.

The more and more I hear this guy talk, the more convinced I am that he knows nothing about Taekwondo. He seems like the kind of guy who moonlights in a different martial art every year or so and then quits to do another.

Putting all the blocks in a white belt form? LOLOLOL!!!!

This guy doesn't have a clue about teaching!

 

[BaehrTKD]

I've seen this pattern at a school I attended, (not the school in the video), and the KJN (a Korean) called it "kibon poomsae - basic pattern", as in the video. But that was the only "Kibon" poomsae at that school.

Our school has its own Ki-Bon patterns, not the ones shown in the video above.

There is no one universal set of Ki-Bon patterns. They are by definition, generic.

Our Ki-Bon patterns (1-3) prepare students for yellow belt better than any other.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I know some people have difficulty with names of techniques especially when it's in a foreign language.

We teach all of the technique names in English, and I advise every other school in an English-speaking country to do the same.

The schools that insist on using Korean names for techniques (outside of Korea) are doing so because they think it scores them more points for legitimacy, but all it really does it create another huge barrier for students trying to learn.

We use Korean only for the formal stuff like attention, bow, and ready. All of the technique names and counting are in English.

It would be like teaching modern mathematics to English speaking students by writing the textbook in ancient Greek or Hebrew. That would be laughable.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Whether you're practicing TKD, Karate, BJJ, or anything else, the saying I read somewhere recently holds true. 'There are no black belt techniques, only techniques done at a black belt level.'

Of course this doesn't mean that I teach jumping spinning kicks to white belts, but illustrates the point that everything comes back to basic fundamentals of movement. The hip alignment and method of power generation for a side kick are the same whether it is done from the front or back leg, jumping, and/or spinning.

Everything comes back to fundamentals yes, but there are definitely movements that require more skill than others.

You can't do a jumping spinning kick of any kind until you have learned to do the equivalent kick on the ground first, without the spin. In essence, the basic kick has to be learned, then the kick with a jump or spin, and then the kick with both jump and spin.

Crafting a curriculum to progressively build on the basic techniques takes a lot of time and effort.

As to the memorization, I'm a big proponent of how I was trained. While all sorts of areas are taught and practiced, our belt grading is focused primarily on measurable areas (fundamental movements/combos, patterns, and sparring).

Agreed.

Our White Belt test contains our basic 4 direction punch pattern and 11 fundamental movements done forward and back down the floor:
- 6 hand techniques (punch, down, up, inner forearm, knife hand blocks, and knife hand strike)
- 5 Kicking techniques (Front straight and snap, side straight and snap, & back kicks).
The only things the student need to memorize is the names of each move (generally built into what it's called... an up block is called an up block), and the single, simple pattern.

Sounds very reasonable.

Sparring gets added to the test on subsequent belts, but the other sections remain essentially the same. Each belt level must perform the material for their belt, as well as the belt level before their current rank. This ends up looking like the following:

We did things the same way and I keep the same formula at my school.

 

[Earl Weiss]

We teach all of the technique names in English, and I advise every other school in an English-speaking country to do the same.

The schools that insist on using Korean names for techniques (outside of Korea) are doing so because they think it scores them more points for legitimacy, but all it really does it create another huge barrier for students trying to learn.

.

1. Agree that teaching in mon native language presents barriers.
2. Fortunately for me General Choi taught in English unless there was a large Korean contingent present.
3. Sometimes Korean terminology was used because the instructor was Korean and did not know the native language names This then carried thru to their progeny.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Ki-Bon Hyung #1

Prepares the student by introducing the most fundamental techniques in Taekwondo:
- Middle punch
- High punch
- Low block
- Middle block
- High block

With these basics, the student can defend against any attack, and can strike mid or head level with the most fundamental strike.

Also notice that both left and right side of the body are being developed here, and the student is learning forward, backward, and side stepping.

 

[BaehrTKD]

There seems to be a glitch because this thread is no longer appearing in the thread list under Taekwondo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There seems to be a glitch because this thread is no longer appearing in the thread list under Taekwondo.

Yes, it is. I just checked on two Linux systems and one Windows 11. I checked using Chrome, Bing, and Firefox. If there is a glitch, it would seem to be on your end.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Yes, it is. I just checked on two Linux systems and one Windows 11. I checked using Chrome, Bing, and Firefox. If there is a glitch, it would seem to be on your end.

Are the threads sorted by the most recent post date? If so then it should be at the top of the list right?

So where is it then?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are the threads sorted by the most recent post date? If so then it should be at the top of the list right?

So where is it then?

It is there, directly under the pinned posts, on my screen. Did you put skribs on ignore? If you did, posts started by him will not show up unless you click on "show ignored content" in the bottom right.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are the threads sorted by the most recent post date?

Yes, although "sticky" posts will always be on top, by definition.

If so then it should be at the top of the list right?

So where is it then?

On my screen, it's the very first post after the stickies. Because it has the most recent post.
Did you put @skribs on ignore, as you said? If so, then you're not going to see posts by him. Because that's what ignore means. And since he started this thread...
As I said, it's on your end.

 

[isshinryuronin]

all by number

I can see having a particular series for forms #1-5, but to number techniques or combos to memorize is not to my liking. Reminds me of the old song, Secret Agent Man, where they "give you a number and take away your name." In my style there are basic kihon, upper and lower body techniques (about 30), that are referred to by some teachers by number. I much prefer just saying the name. In the very old days of karate, the moves didn't even have names - just, "against left head punch, move your arm like this, then do this kick to his knee." There were no lists, just privately handed down oral tradition.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Yes, although "sticky" posts will always be on top, by definition.

On my screen, it's the very first post after the stickies. Because it has the most recent post.
Did you put @skribs on ignore, as you said? If so, then you're not going to see posts by him. Because that's what ignore means. And since he started this thread...
As I said, it's on your end.

Yes. I guess I'll have to un-ignore him then to be able to see the threads.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I can see having a particular series for forms #1-5, but to number techniques or combos to memorize is not to my liking. Reminds me of the old song, Secret Agent Man, where they "give you a number and take away your name." In my style there are basic kihon, upper and lower body techniques (about 30), that are referred to by some teachers by number. I much prefer just saying the name. In the very old days of karate, the moves didn't even have names - just, "against left head punch, move your arm like this, then do this kick to his knee." There were no lists, just privately handed down oral tradition.

I think names would be easier to remember than numbers. We don't do either. If we're practicing one-step type things, I'll demonstrate and say 'go for it' and then wander around answering questions and giving feedback.
During tests, we might say "show me X ways to counter Y". One of the things we're looking for with high-geup and Dan ranks is things we did not explicitly show them. That demonstrates understanding of the underlying principles involved.