Does anyone train gun / knife retention & use from the ground?

[Gerry Seymour]

That's what I meant about affecting the tactical options. The weapon may affect the priorities for both you and the attacker. However the underlying skill set for achieving those priorities is the same.

BTW - the attacker may be more focused on disarming you than bashing your head in, but you can't afford to assume that. In the situation you describe, you need to protect yourself from being hit and protect yourself from being disarmed and potentially prevent the attacker from deploying his own weapon and escape the controlled position and get to your feet.

I'm going to need a to-do list for that.

 

[CB Jones]

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Seeing that the gun is already drawn....I'm fighting to create enough space to use the weapon.

 

[Buka]

Yes and yes. Haven't in a while, though.

 

[Brian King]

We do a LOT of unscripted training with weapons while on the ground and while transitioning to and from the ground. For folks that carry firearms we also 'touch' on contact shooting.

A fun blade drill that you might want to explore Bill, that comes from Systema informally nicknamed Stalin's bodyguard.Three people on the ground and none are allowed to stand up. One metal knife. This is an attribute drill NOT a technique type of drill. One more time, this is for training attributes not necessarily techniques.

The idea is for two to work against the one with the knife and to somehow get the knife out of that ones hand(s). Now the trick is everyone is stab and slice proof and 'cannot die' or run away. If the attacker keeps a 'death grip' or turtles up on his blade then the other two simply start punching that attacker...hard until they decide to loosen up the grip, if the attacker is in such a position that he cannot attack as the defenders have control of the blade or hand, then the attacker should 'let' a defender gain control of the blade. The attackers job is to slice and dice the other two right away and aggressively. Like a snapping dog, cut anything and everything within range. Whoever has the blade is the attacker and the other two are the defenders and 'victims'. The genius of this drill Bill is that the very instant the knife switches hands the roles switch. There is no called stop, no discussing. One minute you are on the attackers legs while your partner is gaining control of the attackers arms and upper body and the next your partner is reaching over and slicing your back and neck...and you are on your needed partners legs!

Bodyguards throughout history have been notorious in killing their protected charge and often fellow bodyguards in the process. This drill teaches weapon and situation awareness. It explores intimately the OODA loop, especially the observe and orientate phases while in physical action. It demonstrates the danger of fixation. It teaches how a body feels and reacts when it goes from defender to attacker or from attacker to defender. Importantly it is a heck of a lot of fun. Laughter must be encouraged (required even), not anger or rage. Learning these attributes in this type of drill require a playful mindset. A metal training blade assists takeway's but increases danger. Watch the eyes and keep the speed to a speed that all can handle. If much more experienced are working with beginners, they the more experienced should handicap themselves a bit...use one arm not the other, shut their eyes, keep a hand in a pants pocket or inside a belt etc.

Regards
Brian King

 

[lklawson]

I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Likewise, you are confronted by an armed hoodlum, you tackle him to the ground, and now you are the one trying to avoid being shot or stabbed, and to take away the weapon?

Just curious. I'm not sure I've seen such discussion or training before.

What I have seen are what we in karate might call 'one step' drills. The bad guy does this, you do that. You step thusly, block as such, grasp, twist, stab, slash, etc. But what happens when it all goes south and you end up in a heap on the ground? The BJJ guys have many escapes and ways to avoid being taken down, etc. But it all changes when one hand is holding a weapon, edged or noisy, or your enemy is.

Is there training out there for that?

I do some.

These guys do a LOT. They have a systemized method for it..
New Home Page | American Warrior Society

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Likewise, you are confronted by an armed hoodlum, you tackle him to the ground, and now you are the one trying to avoid being shot or stabbed, and to take away the weapon?

Just curious. I'm not sure I've seen such discussion or training before.

What I have seen are what we in karate might call 'one step' drills. The bad guy does this, you do that. You step thusly, block as such, grasp, twist, stab, slash, etc. But what happens when it all goes south and you end up in a heap on the ground? The BJJ guys have many escapes and ways to avoid being taken down, etc. But it all changes when one hand is holding a weapon, edged or noisy, or your enemy is.

Is there training out there for that?

Bill,

I have done this with those I train with. It is not as regular as Brian's guys, particularly firearms. I usually do that work with one or two others outside of class.

In the mid 00's, I was in London Ontario to teach a intro knife seminar on Friday night. I was to hang out with some friends over the weekend, and attend a friend's event
on Sunday. Well that Saturday there was a Vale Tudo event and we were invited as guests by the host to attend. They were working ground work. I had my Wave trainer with me for my instruction seminar and I was working with another friend from Michigan. He and I were off to the side and we started out working on the techniques the instructor was teaching. We were in street clothes, while everyone else was in a gyi or shorts for wrestling/ vale tudo.

My friend asked if I had my trainer, and I said yes. I put it in my front pocket where I would carry it and then we worked if I could deploy it. With the wave it was just getting access and being able to pull. That unique sound / snap of the blade locking into place stopped the seminar except the two of us. I was giggling and trying to stab and cut him and he was trying to stop me. He was also giggling. Yes it was like to little kids tickle fighting each other. We were enjoying it. I stopped when the instructor got near and I realized that I had paid attention to my near space but not to enough of the lack of noise as everyone had stopped. He the instructor looked at us like we were crazy and then I verified with him that it was a trainer. (* Note when I grabbed it to come back on the floor, he saw me and so I flashed him the blue handle and the non edged blade and showed it would cut. He did not register that. He just saw me get something and he smiled and let us continue. *)

He then told the rest of the seminar attendees that what we were doing was not on the agenda for the class / seminar.

So yes we do train it. And I do more often then in class as it is done for myself. Some of my private students want more of this so they get more as they are paying the private rate and gear the instruction to their desires.