How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

I never said that.

If that is what was referred to in your post it certainly was not clear. I thought it was in regard to your claim that Sine Wave was not universaly accepted by ITF orgs., vis a vis a poster not being representative of the ITF curriculum.

I highly doubt that it was a permanent part of ITF in the mid 70s, as some here would have led one to believe.

 

[TrueJim]

I never said that.

Earl, you provided a tidbit of information about the 70s, and then subsequently listed a whole bunch of things you've accomplished since then. If you were a philosophy major you would understand that logically, this implies that you did all those things in the 70s.

(Actually...no, it doesn't imply that at all.)

 

[TrueJim]

In fact someone did a comparison of patterns performed on the DVDs under the supervision of General Choi and later videos a s currently practiced by some and found some current versions had much more pronounced down / up / down motions.

I've always assumed that the exaggeration in videos is for illustrative purposes. Like...it's hard to see slight down-up-down motions in a video, so you have to exaggerate the motion if you want to explain it.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I wrote: Which only gained prominence in the 80s. The Korean quoted from Rayners claimed (incorrectly) the 90s. Dirty Dog replied how soon it was for him (as if it had any relevance from a worldwide perspective). Mr Weiss, seemingly, backed him up.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I highly doubt that it was a permanent part of ITF in the mid 70s, as some here would have led one to believe.

Doubt all you like. It's easy for you snce you were not there.

I was there. We flexed the knees. We called it "Spring Style". Some of the people I trained with competed at the ITF Championships in I am pretty sure the year was 1974 In Canada.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I've always assumed that the exaggeration in videos is for illustrative purposes. Like...it's hard to see slight down-up-down motions in a video, so you have to exaggerate the motion if you want to explain it.

The videos studied were of the same type. Showing what purported to be the standard performance.

However, I would agree that exageration in patterns has a purpose.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Doubt all you like. It's easy for you snce you were not there.

I was there. We flexed the knees. We called it "Spring Style". Some of the people I trained with competed at the ITF Championships in I am pretty sure the year was 1974 In Canada.

Was the motion as pronounced like the later coined "Sine Wave"? My instructor must have clearly missed out on the rest of the world, then. I will have to re check and ask him, if his students were taught the exact equivalent of sine wave in the 70s.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I wrote: Which only gained prominence in the 80s. The Korean quoted from Rayners claimed (incorrectly) the 90s. Dirty Dog replied how soon it was for him (as if it had any relevance from a worldwide perspective). Mr Weiss, seemingly, backed him up.

At this point I have to say there is some truth here. People who competed on an international stage, have remarked how technique became much more uniform during the 1980's and this was due to an increase in the number of IICs throughout the world taught during the decade by Park Jung Tae. Tools like books, video and later the internet, made this easier. . Some younger folks may find it hard to believe that video capability for the average consumer was really not available before 1980 or so.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Was the motion as pronounced like the later coined "Sine Wave"? My instructor must have clearly missed out on the rest of the world, then. I will have to re check and ask him, if his students were taught the exact equivalent of sine wave in the 70s.

As I stated the motions in some newer videos are much more pronounced even than those done in the late 1990's. Many motions were different for any number of reasons. From the 2 dimensional page it's tough to tell what the motion is supposed to be.

Examples for us included the Defensive hook Kick found in Ko Dang and later Ju Che, and the pick shape kick. Until you saw it performed we were really confused. Once you saw it, it was easy to understand.

Even with direct exposure to General Choi teaching it took a little while to understand what he wanted especialy since he initialy explained it as "Up / Down" and at later occasions as "Down / Up / Down ". I went so far as to fly someone in to my school to help with it because he was physicaly more talented than I and able to assimilate it better, but that is a story for another day.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Original ITF Taekwon-Do Inception, 1966 and (Steve Cheah ?) 1972

Still no knee spring or SW here. Original, true Taekwon-Do

 

[TrueJim]

No knee spring or SW here. Original, true Taekwon-Do

It's interesting when you go to YouTube to watch that video, and you read the comments section on YouTube. People arguing over what constitutes "true" taekwondo. For myself, I don't see the point in those kinds of arguments. It's like arguing about what constitutes "true" karate or "true" judo. There's a lot of ignorance in YouTube's comments section too.

If you don't like somebody else's martial arts style, I have the perfect solution: don't practice it.

 

[Drose427]

Original ITF Taekwon-Do Inception, 1966 and (Steve Cheah ?) 1972

No knee spring or SW here. Original, true Taekwon-Do[/QUOT

It's interesting when you go to YouTube to watch that video, and you read the comments section on YouTube. People arguing over what constitutes "true" taekwondo. For myself, I don't see the point in those kinds of arguments. It's like arguing about what constitutes "true" karate or "true" judo. There's a lot of ignorance in YouTube's comments section too.

If you don't like somebody else's martial arts style, I have the perfect solution: don't practice it.

Really, anyone who thinks there just one "true" TKD is just being elitist.

For heavens sake, the 9 kwans(by defi-flipping-nition original TKD) didn't even do the same things. Nor did all the schools that would immediately change their MA name to TKD.

 

[Laplace_demon]

It's interesting when you go to YouTube to watch that video, and you read the comments section on YouTube. People arguing over what constitutes "true" taekwondo. For myself, I don't see the point in those kinds of arguments. It's like arguing about what constitutes "true" karate or "true" judo. There's a lot of ignorance in YouTube's comments section too.

If you don't like somebody else's martial arts style, I have the perfect solution: don't practice it.

If I don't like it, I should stop doing it? What a brilliant comment. Never thought of that. Shotokan training is boring as hell. I know, since my father is chief instructor. TKD training is much more fun.

I put a smiley there for a reason.

 

[elder999]

Original ITF Taekwon-Do Inception, 1966 and (Steve Cheah ?) 1972

Still no knee spring or SW here. Original, true Taekwon-Do

Nah, there's "knee spring," (though I'd likely call it "flex,") just as there is in Japanese/Okinawan karate, Chinese gung fu, boxing and........golf. It's just not the exaggerated motion that's come to be called the "sine wave."

In fact, even with the quality of that video, the flex is clearly there.....big time.

If I don't like it, I should stop doing it? What a brilliant comment. Never thought of that. Shotokan training is boring as hell. I know, since my father is chief instructor. TKD training is much more fun.

Eh.......not so much, really......when you get right down to it, most martial arts training is, by its very nature, monotonous......if you prefer, "boring as hell." Shotokan? Sure. Tae kwon do? Just as much....fun is where you find it, and a matter of taste....."chief instructor?".....your dad is Okazaki Teruyuki? Really???!! That's awesome!

Or did you mean Masaaki Ueki? Probably not....

I put a smiley there for a reason.

I can see that.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Nah, there's "knee spring," (though I'd likely call it "flex,") just as there is in Japanese/Okinawan karate, Chinese gung fu, boxing and........golf. It's just not the exaggerated motion that's come to be called the "sine wave."

In fact, even with the quality of that video, the flex is clearly there.....big time.

Well now. IF that's what they mean by "we had sine wave already in the mid 70s", we called it knee spring", type of comments, then the defenders of the system are simply being dishonest.

 

[elder999]

Well now. IF that's what they mean by "we had sine wave already in the mid 70s", we called it knee spring", type of comments, then the defenders of the system are simply being dishonest.

Which has little to do with your original question, and a great deal to do with how I think you should have worded it:

How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 FEEL like?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Nah, there's "knee spring," (though I'd likely call it "flex,") just as there is in Japanese/Okinawan karate, Chinese gung fu, boxing and........golf. It's just not the exaggerated motion that's come to be called the "sine wave."

In fact, even with the quality of that video, the flex is clearly there.....big time.



Eh.......not so much, really......when you get right down to it, most martial arts training is, by its very nature, monotonous......if you prefer, "boring as hell." Shotokan? Sure. Tae kwon do? Just as much....fun is where you find it, and a matter of taste....."chief instructor?".....your dad is Okazaki Teruyuki? Really???!! That's awesome!

Or did you mean Masaaki Ueki? Probably not....

My father is chief instructor. I meant every word of it. And no, my TKD training is quite varied. Traditional Shotokan is kata, kata, bunkai, and some more Kata...

 

[elder999]

My father is chief instructor.I meant every word of it.

Then a name might be the "every word" that's in order, otherwise, I'm calling it B.S. (and missing the "raise the B.S. flag smiley" ).........a Japanese name would be nice, but a reference to the "chief instructor" of the Swedish JKA or ISKF would be nice.....

Is your dad Hirozoku Kanazawa? Cool!

And no, my TKD training is quite varied. Traditional Shotokan is kata, kata, bunkai, and some more Kata...

Shotokan training has plenty of sparring, three step, one step and free sparring....it's all kind of monotonous.......

 

[Laplace_demon]

Shotokan training has plenty of sparring, three step, one step and free sparring....it's all kind of monotonous.......

Eh, that type of sparring is not exactly what I would call "fun".

 

[Laplace_demon]

No free sparring. And no competitions. It's traditional Shotokan