Traditional shotokan HAS free sparring.....
I have absolutely not idea where you pulled that idea...
How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?
- Thread starter Laplace_demon
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Traditional shotokan HAS free sparring.....
I have absolutely not idea where you pulled that idea...
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Well, he has litte to no free sparring. It's 99% theory. He might include on occasion some type of sparring to train distancing, but really no sparring to speak of. Pretty boooring.
I've seen lots of traditional Shotokan over the last 44 years.....some of it even in Japan, in traditional Shotokan dojo....some of it elsewhere...in traditional Shotokan dojo.....they all practiced jiyu kumite....free sparring....and, in fact, they sponsor the All Japan Karate Championship, and the Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate Championship...both of which, since you've never heard of them, are tournaments, you know.....competitions?.......so, what are you talking about? I really don't know, and, apparently, neither do you......again........
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I've seen lots of traditional Shotokan over the last 44 years.....some of it even in Japan, in traditional Shotokan dojo....some of it elsewhere...in traditional Shotokan dojo.....they all practiced jiyu kumite....free sparring....and, in fact, they sponsor the All Japan Karate Championship, and the Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate Championship...both of which, since you've never heard of them, are tournaments, you know.....competitions?.......so, what are you talking about? I really don't know, and, apparently, neither do you......again........
"Funakoshi had many students at the university clubs and outside dojos, who continued to teach karate after his death in 1957. However, internal disagreements (in particular the notion that competition is contrary to the essence of karate) led to the creation of different organizations"
Yeah, okay-which of those "different organizations" does your mythical champion in non-competitive Shotokan "Chief Instructor" dad belong to, Mr. LaPlace?
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
What has that got to do with it? Do you still contend that I don't know what I am talking about? Please, go on.
Funakoshi may have agreed that COMPETITIONS were contrarybto Karate,
But he advocated Kumite.
So your assertion that Laplace that Free Sparring was not apart of Traditional Shotokan is still wrong. At this point you're just arguing to be less wrong
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I don't know why there is little to no free sparring in a supposed traditional Shotokan curriculum. I am reasonably happy with my TKD training as it is and don't care.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I'm not sure I follow? I talked about all the YouTube commenters who were saying that this style or that style was not the "true" taekwondo style. I then said, if you don't like somebody else's style, here's the solution...don't practice it.
How did you get from there, to...you should stop doing Shotokan?
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Btw, the Choi press conference in Chile (about WTF) appears to be from 1997. He asked the instructor if he had been teaching since 5 years (1992). I don't know why the Chile press concidered UFC "new".
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
So he changed his mind over night, basically, from saying he never concidered WTF TKD, to it's all TKD. If you can believe that, you can believe anything.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Is there such a thing as a change-of-mind that doesn't happen pretty-much overnight?
I mean, a person holds one opinion one day. Maybe over a span of time they mull-over their opinion, they get new information, or their worldview just slowly evolves...and then one day they decide their opinion has changed. I didn't used to like broccoli, until one day I did. It's not like one typically spends a year in some sort of intermediate opinionless limbo.
I'm trying to think of an example of where any person I know has had one opinion one day, and their change of opinion didn't occur on the next day. As opposed to: they had one opinion one year, another opinion a year later, and no opinion during the year in-between.
And also, even if the year-long-opinion-change scenario were common, why would it be so hard to believe that in this instance a person's opinion changed overnight? You say, "If you can believe that, you can believe anything"....as if believing that a person's opinion has changed overnight is like believing in unicorns. "Somebody's opinion changed overnight? Whoa! That never happens!"
And even if...even if for some crazy reason...one does believe that most opinions don't normally change pretty-much overnight, even if one does believe that the year-long-opinion-change scenario is common...why is it a bad thing for a person's opinion to change from one day to the next? It's not a bad thing for a person's opinion to change. If anything, it's usually a good thing.
We're back to the scenario: "How dare he! How DARE he change his opinion!", as if that's a bad thing. But now we've added, "And you're crazy for thinking that such a thing is possible!" I'm not seeing it.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
He says that he never concidered WTF TKD. This is a man in his late 70s. Approximately a year or two later, WTF Taekwondo is in the talks of becoming an olympic sport, not yet finalised, Choi comments "it's all TKD."
Where have you gotten the notion that I am saying "how dare he?". I am simply pointing to his character. You can draw your own conclusions. But to think that he changed his opinion is quite unlikely, given such a categorical statement, held all his life well into his 70s.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Yes! That's it! Exactly! You're calling his character into question because he changed his mind. I'm just not seeing it. Why question somebody's character based on the fact that they've changed their mind? People are allowed to change their opinions on things. People do it all the time. It's not even a big deal. It seems like you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. "Choi used to think only his taekwondo was real taekwondo, but later in life he said it was all taekwondo!" As if that has some large, duplicitous significance.
You think it's - in your own words - quite unlikely that Choi changed his mind, based merely on the fact that one day he said his opinion was one thing, and then another day he said his opinion was a different thing?
I mean...what more does a person have to do to convince you Laplace that they've changed their mind, other than to explicitly articulate a different opinion than the one they previously held? That's like saying you think it's quite unlikely that somebody has changed their mind about something, because their only evidence is that they told you they had. What more evidence are you looking for?
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
It would depend entirely on the circumstances. In this case, like I wrote earlier, the circumstances are suspect given that it's with WTF Taekwondo becoming an olympic sport. If he simply changed his mind, then I would be baffled (given his age), but not as suspicious. You see, it all relates to context, yet this somehow completely escapes you.
What if everybody want's to be your friend once your rich? Would you take it as sincere? Did they simply change their minds? Context.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
But Mulder, we already trod this ground, in this very thread. The timing you propose doesn't even make sense. There's a multi-year gap between when his opinion changed, and when it became an Olympic sport.
Because...REASONS! That, and the fact that old people do not change their minds. Or maybe the fact that you're easily baffled. I can't decide. There are too many good jokes here to pick just one.
Everybody already wants to be my friend. I'm very charming. And devilishly handsome.
If it happened like...five years before I became rich, yah, I'd think they were sincere. Or even five years after.
But let's just say Mulder, for the sake of argument, that the only reason Choi changed his mind is because Kukkiwon-style became an Olympic sport. I know you want to believe Mulder, you want to believe those aliens are real! So let's suppose the aliens are real. Let's suppose one morning Choi woke up and realized overnight that he'd been wrong all those years, because competing styles of taekwondo were gaining in popularity. Even then, it's a big SO WHAT. That still doesn't say anything particularly good or bad about the man's character.
Honestly Laplace, you want to believe this thing so badly, this thing that isn't even interesting even if it could be proven true, this thing that could never be proven true in any case because it's all just conjecture based on the inner workings of another man's mind, a conjecture that doesn't even have the merit of ringing true in the first place based on the scant evidence of timing alone...
Wait, you know what? You've convinced me. See there? It's midnight here, and I've changed my mind...overnight! It does happen! Laplace is right. Choi was just a glory-grabbing hound-dog who only pretended to like other styles of taekwondo because they were becoming popular. The proof is in the timing. His claim to appreciate the other styles was nothing but a cold, calculating lie.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I have never, ever, concidered him my son. Never! He is not my son..I did not give birth to him. I only had one son, and it wasn't Laplace, it was Andy. There is only one son from me, don't be lead astray....
Fast forward--- Laplace winning the Olympics ---- There's my son!
Go figure...
Fast forward--- Laplace winning the Olympics ---- There's my son!
Go figure...
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
We've already been over this, in this very thread. The correct analogy would be:
1980s: Laplace is hanging out with assholes, he's no son to me.
1988: Laplace stops hanging out with assholes. (The assholes in this case being the South Korean dictatorship.)
1990s: You know, Laplace is my son after all.
2004: Hey my son won the Olympics!
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