How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?
- Thread starter Laplace_demon
- Start date
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
I really find the use if the word traditional in respect to anything Taekwondo somewhat strange, especially in some of the contexts it gets used. How traditional can it be? My folks were born in the fifties. Does that make them traditional?That has been my observation as well. Some Chang Hon-style schools that don't adopt the Sine Wave refer to themselves as "traditional" taekwondo.
But then, the school my son and I attend is a Kukkiwon-style school, and right there on the website of the school, they call themselves "traditional" taekwondo as well!It just goes to show you, one man's new-fangled-style is another man's "traditional."
If theyre doing the same things theyre parents were!
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
"Another instructor I know, whom is native Korean & has trained under no less than four of General Choi`s original, 1st generation pioneering instructors, had this to say: "The sine wave is not accepted by all factions of ITF stylists. It came somewhere around the
90s. It is a recent thing. Not accepted by all Grandmasters. "
Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy
90s. It is a recent thing. Not accepted by all Grandmasters. "
Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Just to rub it in...
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
I thought that too.
got the popcorn......
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
'Quoting Rayners Academy quoting someone. Was that too hard for you?
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
No, I understand the concept.
You said you didn't consider sine wave a defining characteristic of Taekwon-Do, apparently because it only "gained prominence" in the 1980's. This despite GM Kim, Yong Soo, who was there and working extremely closely with Gen. Choi, saying otherwise and despite Master Weiss pointing out that the use of knee spring - which is what sine wave is - was around since at least Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook and that sine wave is simply a term coined to describe what was already being done.
Given that Gen. Choi was founding a style and trying to unite many people who were already practicing different styles of martial arts it's hardly surprising that some of them didn't adopt his new style wholesale. While there were instructors who worked with Gen. Choi very closely and learned his system directly from his there were other instructors who never learned the whole thing, including the fine points and didn't even learn all of the patterns before leaving his organization. If they didn't learn the style in depth it should hardly be surprising that they didn't learn one of its defining characteristics.
Your position also puts you directly at odds with Gen. Choi, who was quite adamant that sine wave was a hallmark of his style when I had the opportunity to attend a seminar with him.
I am surprised an undergraduate in philosophy would say such a thing. I am sure you're familiar with the concept of potential and act. If you theorize about something it exists in act in your mind and in potentia as a physical action. If you then begin practicing the technique you were pondering it then exists as a physical action in act.
It depends on your view point of "a long time." Gen. Choi founded Taekwon-Do in 1955. Sine wave was developed in the late 1960s and being practiced by the early 1970s under the appellation of "knee spring." That's not very long at all in the grand scheme of things.
That is the website that had published the article with inaccurate information about turning kicks. I am familiar with the gentleman whose school that is. He has an unconventional view of the history of sine wave, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Interesting. He is a member of the North Korean led ITF. Is your assertion that sine wave isn't a universal aspect of Taekwon-Do as the ITF teaches it something Master Yeo told you? Is this the position of the North Korean led ITF as a whole? The Norht Koreans seemed to be pretty much on the sine wave band wagon last I knew.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Since I was doing sine wave in the 1980s and other people were doing it earlier than that this is demonstrably false.
Pax,
Chris
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
No, but it does make them the average age of Martial Talk contributors.
*ducking* I kid, I kid!
That's a pretty silly claim to make, since it (like so much of what you post) is demonstrably false.
I was introduced to sine wave in the mid- to late-70's. I freely admit that I have never really cared for it, and to this day I don't generally incorporate it into my practice of the Chang Hon forms. But it was certainly being introduced long before the 90's.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
You are not representive of the global ITF curriculum as a hole. You also focused on the wrong part of the quote. The stament regarding acceptance of sine wave among GMs was what I found interesting. Yet nobody wants to comment that.
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Several points:
1. Mr. Anslow and I are well acquainted since he's published at least 20 of my articles in his magazine. We have agreed to disagree on several things. Obviously the above is false with regard to the 1990's statement because "Sine Wave" as a term appears in the 1980 Text. Certainly there may have been some people out of the loop for 10 years I have a video of an IIC by Park Jung Tae from 1987 where the motion is shown and addressed.
2. I don't know which Pioneers he refers to but using them as examples is a bad choice.; A few cases in Point. A. I hosted Nam Tae Hi. He still used a Japanese term or two for techniques. B. I was well acquainted with Han Cha Kyo. Was on the floor with him at his school once. He only taught 20 patterns and did something unusual for for Hwa Rang which he developed. C. He Il Cho and Jhoon Rhee's texts, one of which is named the Complete text, only have 20 patterns in them. D. ATA progeny of HU Lee who do the Chang Hon system as do progeny of Han Cha Kyo have a "Chung Do Kwan Flavor" to their techniques including lack of knee flexion. So "not accepted by grandmasters" means little more than not wanting to change or learn something different.
3. "Factions" of ITF stylists" is a key phrase which again shows your confusion with regard to what the ITFsn use as a standard for the organizations and using the name ITF for a style. (A mistake Mr. Anslow is not making by using the term "Stylists".
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
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Here is my experience vis a vis ITF Curriculum as a whole. 6 Full (Hosted One) and One partial IIC by General Choi plus seminars, in the USA, Canada, Jamaica, Russia, Italy, as well has Having judged World Cup and International Championships in 3 countries. 2 More ITF V IICs after General Choi's death.
If you feel that is not enough of a representation as to what the ITF curriculum is then we will agree to disagree.
Here is my experience vis a vis ITF Curriculum as a whole. 6 Full (Hosted One) and One partial IIC by General Choi plus seminars, in the USA, Canada, Jamaica, Russia, Italy, as well has Having judged World Cup and International Championships in 3 countries. 2 More ITF V IICs after General Choi's death.
If you feel that is not enough of a representation as to what the ITF curriculum is then we will agree to disagree.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
The point is this: One of Chois major departures from Karate (sine wave) was a fiasco. Evidence of this is the number of splinter groups that kept his pattern, but rejected Sine Wave. It is not universally accepted among ITF stylists. I know for a fact that groups practising his system without sine wave, do so because they did/do not like it, not because of politics.
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