How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[RTKDCMB]

You have to view my comments in the context of a highly gifted individual, who can put two and two together.

Someone giving you things does not make you gifted.

 

[TrueJim]

Btw, he also bashed your dear Karate, claiming that TKD was an improvement (surpassed) Karate, as if this was a fact by the time his encyclopedia was written. Silly beyond belief.

I don't think you're looking at this in the right way. I believe you have to think about Choi in the context of all the stuff that was happening in that era.

For Korean people of Choi's generation, it was very difficult to like anything Japanese. For 35 years Imperial Japan occupied Korea, and the occupation was particularly cruel. Korean men -- often just teenagers -- were drafted into the Japanese army and forced to fight for the Japanese; by World War II the Japanese army was drafting 300,000 Korean men per year into the Japanese army, forcing these men to fight for their oppressors. Nobody even knows how many young Korean girls were taken from their families by the Japanese and forced into sexual slavery for the Japanese army, but some estimates place it as high as 400,000 girls. That's 400,000 daughters and sisters forced into sexual slavery. Can you imagine! Families weren't just torn apart, they were destroyed outright. Choi himself had been a prisoner of the Japanese.

If Choi had any unflattering remarks to make about Japanese martial arts, I think you have to remember the context of the times. At that time, I think it was difficulty for anybody Korean to have anything flattering to say about anything Japanese.

Korea under Japanese rule - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comfort women - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't think you're looking at this in the right way. I believe you have to think about Choi in the context of all the stuff that was happening in that era.

For Korean people of Choi's generation, it was very difficult to like anything Japanese. For 35 years Imperial Japan occupied Korea, and the occupation was particularly cruel. Korean men -- often just teenagers -- were drafted into the Japanese army and forced to fight for the Japanese; by World War II the Japanese army was drafting 300,000 Korean men per year into the Japanese army, forcing these men to fight for their oppressors. Nobody even knows how many young Korean girls were taken from their families by the Japanese and forced into sexual slavery for the Japanese army, but some estimates place it as high as 400,000 girls. That's 400,000 daughters and sisters forced into sexual slavery. Can you imagine! Families weren't just torn apart, they were destroyed outright. Choi himself had been a prisoner of the Japanese.

If Choi had any unflattering remarks to make about Japanese martial arts, I think you have to remember the context of the times. At that time, I think it was difficulty for anybody Korean to have anything flattering to say about anything Japanese.

Korea under Japanese rule - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comfort women - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I understand psychology very well. He can convince himself that he created his own unique korean art, despite the fact that the WTF (the biggest TKD organisation in the world) don't accept him as the founder. That his second name is TKD, and so forth.

That doesn't however excuse his 180 on WTF TKD once it gained the spotlight for Taekwondo in the Olympics. Suddenly then Choi was quick to grab the credit for his art, and that he was very happy that it had been accepted into the olympics, when he had been very clear before that he did not concider WTF to be Taekwondo, it was taekwondo by name only, borrowed and a weak copy of Karate. Later pretending to be flattered how much his art had accomplished.

When his dream (olympics) was realised for WTF, Choi suddenly took credit for their Taekwondo as well, and asserted it's all TKD.

 

[Tez3]

In the UK we still have many British ex Japanese prisoners of war, (men, women and children) who cannot forgive what was done to them. Like the Koreans, the fact that Japan has never made any formal apology for happened has rankled them deeply.

I'm not sure what the OP wanted when he started this thread, I came to it because although I don't train TKD I find it interesting and would be keen to know more about it. However the flawed reasoning and illogical arguments that he has put forward seem to indicate that the purpose is to denigrate certain parts of TKD rather than have any genuine interest in learning what TKD was like in that time. The trouble is there is no coherent argument from the OP making any specific points, it's rambling, disjointed and some posts are written in such poor English as to either mean something other than intended or mean nothing at all. I will put my hands up and say I actually have no idea what he is talking about most of the time. He may contend that is my fault but I'm afraid it's not. His arguments do not only not hold water they are inconsistent showing muddled thinking, even more muddled knowledge and a lack of respect for those he is discoursing with. I will give him marks for persistence though it is the persistence of a child determined to be heard long after he's been told to go to bed.

I'm sure he won't take this critique personally as he is keen to impress on us what a good student he is. He will take it philosophically and in the spirit of academia that it is offered.

 

[TrueJim]

General Chois opinions of WTF makes me look soft. He also flattly stated that Karate has been surpassed by TKD. That's a blow on Karate too. I find it all hilarious.

I think it's more saddening than hilarious. You mentioned previously that some ITF folks claim that ITF is the only real Taekwon-do, and that may be true. But I don't think that's necessarily representative of most ITF practitioners. You can always find some small minority of people who like to bash this or bash that. There's no shortage of jerks in the world.

I think though that the various schisms in taekwondo are the result of a lot of real human suffering. Like real, tragic stuff that actually happened...actually happened to real living-breathing people.

For example, I think if the Japanese occupation of Korea had never happened, or had at least been less cruel, the martial artists in Korea who were practicing karate in the 20th Century might have been perfectly happy to just call it Korean karate. But given the fact that so many of their brothers and sisters, sons and daughters had been victims of Imperial Japan, that just wasn't palatable.

Likewise, if Korea hadn't become an ideological battleground between communism and the West, the original 5 Kwans might have been able to find common-ground sooner. If the South Korean dictatorships that followed World War II and the Korean War hadn't been so ruthless and mercenary, a lot of the traditional taekwondo schools in South Korea would have been able to remain in South Korea, as traditional taekwondo schools.

The Japanese occupation, World War II, the Korean War, communism, dictatorships...together those are the things that split taekwondo from karate, and helped split taekwondo into different factions, rather than just different styles. If it hadn't been for those things, would we still have different styles of taekwondo? Yah, probably...there's no guarantee that the 5 original kwans would have been able to come together. But I do think, sincerely believe, that without all that political mess, and all that human suffering, the different styles of taekwondo that we have today would be more like the different styles of karate: just different styles, all equal, nobody feeling the need to bash this or bash that.

 

[Drose427]

I think it's more saddening than hilarious. You mentioned previously that some ITF folks claim that ITF is the only real Taekwon-do, and that may be true. But I don't think that's necessarily representative of most ITF practitioners. You can always find some small minority of people who like to bash this or bash that. There's no shortage of jerks in the world.

I think though that the various schisms in taekwondo are the result of a lot of real human suffering. Like real, tragic stuff that actually happened...actually happened to real living-breathing people.

For example, I think if the Japanese occupation of Korea had never happened, or had at least been less cruel, the martial artists in Korea who were practicing karate in the 20th Century might have been perfectly happy to just call it Korean karate. But given the fact that so many of their brothers and sisters, sons and daughters had been victims of Imperial Japan, that just wasn't palatable.

Likewise, if Korea hadn't become an ideological battleground between communism and the West, the original 5 Kwans might have been able to find common-ground sooner. If the South Korean dictatorships that followed World War II and the Korean War hadn't been so ruthless and mercenary, a lot of the traditional taekwondo schools in South Korea would have been able to remain in South Korea, as traditional taekwondo schools.

The Japanese occupation, World War II, the Korean War, communism, dictatorships...together those are the things that split taekwondo from karate, and helped split taekwondo into different factions, rather than just different styles. If it hadn't been for those things, would we still have different styles of taekwondo? Yah, probably...there's no guarantee that the 5 original kwans would have been able to come together. But I do think, sincerely believe, that without all that political mess, and all that human suffering, the different styles of taekwondo that we have today would be more like the different styles of karate: just different styles, all equal, nobody feeling the need to bash this or bash that.

One thing Ive always been interested about is to think about where Korean martial arts would be and whatd they look like if they didnt have the years of Japanese Martial Arts influence from the time of occupation.

I think it coulda been a cool dichotomy

 

[Laplace_demon]

In the UK we still have many British ex Japanese prisoners of war, (men, women and children) who cannot forgive what was done to them. Like the Koreans, the fact that Japan has never made any formal apology for happened has rankled them deeply.

I'm not sure what the OP wanted when he started this thread, I came to it because although I don't train TKD I find it interesting and would be keen to know more about it. However the flawed reasoning and illogical arguments that he has put forward seem to indicate that the purpose is to denigrate certain parts of TKD rather than have any genuine interest in learning what TKD was like in that time. The trouble is there is no coherent argument from the OP making any specific points, it's rambling, disjointed and some posts are written in such poor English as to either mean something other than intended or mean nothing at all. I will put my hands up and say I actually have no idea what he is talking about most of the time. He may contend that is my fault but I'm afraid it's not. His arguments do not only not hold water they are inconsistent showing muddled thinking, even more muddled knowledge and a lack of respect for those he is discoursing with. I will give him marks for persistence though it is the persistence of a child determined to be heard long after he's been told to go to bed.

I'm sure he won't take this critique personally as he is keen to impress on us what a good student he is. He will take it philosophically and in the spirit of academia that it is offered.

You don't know anything about the subject, so why comment. I happen to know the full story very well. My english far exceeds yours. I write very quickly here. You can pretend to yourself that as a native speaker it's greater than mine, despite the fact that both brits and americans butcher their own language at a regular basis.

I think it's more saddening than hilarious. You mentioned previously that some ITF folks claim that ITF is the only real Taekwon-do, and that may be true. But I don't think that's necessarily representative of most ITF practitioners. You can always find some small minority of people who like to bash this or bash that. There's no shortage of jerks in the world.
.

You would have to include former ITF president (and founder) Choi in the list of jerks then. He did not offer particularly kind words about the rival style KKW/WTF. If he can speak that way, I promise you instructors in ITF can as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing, I would only appreciate a certain level of consistency.

 

[Drose427]

You don't know anything about the subject, so why comment. I happen to know the full story very well. My english far exceeds yours. I write very quickly here. You can pretend to yourself that as a native speaker it's greater than mine, despite the fact that both brits and americans butcher their own language at a regular basis.



You would have to include former ITF president Choi in the list of jerks then. He did not offer particularly kind words about the rival style KKW/WTF. If he can speak that way, I promise you instructors in ITF can as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing, I would only appreciate a certain level of consistency.

For someone who knows the full story so well, i seem recall several TKDers in another thread having to correct your history on both ITF and WTF....

 

[TrueJim]

That doesn't however excuse his 180 on WTF TKD...

I'm still not understanding what you mean by the word "excuse." Are you saying that if somebody changes their mind on a topic, they've committed some sort of wrongful act?

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing that Choi appears to have changed his mind. As to why he changed his mind, only Choi himself will ever know that.

• Maybe it is, as you say, just Choi grabbing glory
• Or, just as possibly, maybe now that the South Korean dictatorship that Choi despised so much -- and that had promoted Kukkiwon-style taekwondo -- had been replaced by a modern democracy, maybe now Choi felt comfortable giving kudos to something that he had really been okay with all along (but that he never would have admitted to as long as the dictatorship was in power)
• Or, just as possibly, maybe now that Choi was older and had a broader perspective on life, maybe he simply just changed his mind
• Or, just as possibly, maybe Choi felt that some of his own work and philosophy had indeed found itself into Kukkiwon-style, and so he did take pride in his own contributions

The bottom line is, we can never know why somebody says or does what they do or say. We can speculate, but that's all it is, just speculation. And that's all you're doing Laplace, you're just speculating. You're saying, "I think he changed his mind to grab glory!" That's a perfectly reasonable guess, but it's just a guess. I mean, you never even met the guy. How can you claim to be inside his head?

But really my larger point is this: I don't think we can say to somebody, "How DARE you change your mind! How DARE you! There's no way you can EXCUSE such horrible behavior, as to actually change your mind!" That just doesn't make any sense. Changing one's mind isn't a bad thing.

 

[Laplace_demon]

For someone who knows the full story so well, i seem recall several TKDers in another thread having to correct your history on both ITF and WTF....

The story of General Choi and WTF - the politics involved. I know the background.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I grab glory!" That's a perfectly reasonable guess, but it's just a guess. I mean, you never even met the guy. How can you claim to be inside his head?

.

Because he just so happened to "change his mind" when WTF TKD got the olympics. Don't you get it?

 

[Drose427]

The story of General Choi and WTF - the politics involved. I know the background.

Just like you knew that knee raise kicks didnt exist in kickboxing?

Or knew that Silva cast aside TKD when his ability and statements said otherwise?

Or how you know Karate so well because your father has accomplishments?

Or how you knew Joe was a decorated, phenomenal TKD guy?

If you knew half of what you think you did, nobody would be having these conversations with you

 

[Tez3]

You don't know anything about the subject, so why comment. I happen to know the full story very well. My english far exceeds yours. I write very quickly here. You can pretend to yourself that as a native speaker it's greater than mine, despite the fact that both brits and americans butcher their own language at a regular basis.



You would have to include former ITF president (and founder) Choi in the list of jerks then. He did not offer particularly kind words about the rival style KKW/WTF. If he can speak that way, I promise you instructors in ITF can as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing, I would only appreciate a certain level of consistency.

Actually, my English Degree says my English is better than yours. .

 

[Drose427]

Actually, my English Degree says my English is better than yours. .

And your lack of consistent spelling errors....

 

[elder999]

And what I say has to be taken into the context of highest IQ in the room.

Dude-seriously?

 

[TrueJim]

He did not offer particularly kind words about the rival style KKW/WTF.

Yes, but you have to remember:

• Choi hated the South Korean dictatorship. Hated it. I really do believe Choi was a very patriotic person, and he hated to see his Korea controlled by a dictator.
  
  
• The government of the dictatorship was vehemently promoting Kukki-style taekwondo to the exclusion of all other styles. They were literally shutting-down any school that didn't fall into line with what the dictatorship wanted. That's one reason why so many of the early taekwondo masters emigrated to other countries: so that they could continue to teach their own style in peace.

At that time, in Korea, a lot of people who had been involved in the early development of taekwondo had harsh words for what was happening with the Kukki-style. Some people even referred to it as a "mafia". As just one example: in 1971 the Ministry of Education made up a new rule requiring dojangs to obtain "permits" to operate, but of the 350 dojangs in Seoul, the Ministry decided that only 79 dojangs met the requirements. The government shut-down 270 dojangs...just in Seoul alone!

If I had been the head of a martial arts school in Korea during that era...I might have had some harsh words too!

Laplace, I think this might help you to understand the context better:

Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki

I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing, I would only appreciate a certain level of consistency.

You don't mind style-bashing, as long as it's consistent. ;-)

 

[Tez3]

Actually, my English Degree says my English is better than yours. .

Oh did I mention it's a BA(hons)? seeing as we are doing the 'my dad is bigger than your dad thing here'

 

[Gnarlie]

You don't know anything about the subject, so why comment.

That's a question. It needs a question mark. And whoever wants to comment here can comment. At the moment, I'm finding Tez3's comments are actually adding more to the thread than yours.

I happen to know the full story very well. My english far exceeds yours. I write very quickly here.

No, it really doesn't. I am a teacher of advanced English, and I can tell you that your English abilities often interfere with your ability to communicate. It is only by the grace of the native speakers here helping you that you have the opportunity to clarify. If you are gifted in any way, it is evidently with a prodigious lack of self-awareness.

You can pretend to yourself that as a native speaker it's greater than mine, despite the fact that both brits and americans butcher their own language at a regular basis.

Better, not greater. Brits. Americans. On. On a regular basis.

You would have to include former ITF president (and founder) Choi in the list of jerks then. He did not offer particularly kind words about the rival style KKW/WTF. If he can speak that way, I promise you instructors in ITF can as well. I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing, I would only appreciate a certain level of consistency.

Funny, but all of the people I have met in person, regardless of org, have been more concerned with where Taekwondo is going than where it came from.

It feels like you are deliberately trying to stir something up between the Kukki and ITF practitioners here, but there are TKDin of every ilk on this board, and nobody's biting. I wonder why that might be.

Bash whatever you like. But not here.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't think there is anything wrong with bashing,

Regardless of what you personally think about another martial art it never hurts to show a modicum of respect because showing respect for other martial arts says more about you than it does them.

 

[Tez3]

You don't know anything about the subject, so why comment.

Why comment?

As I have already said, I'm interested in martial arts, all martial arts. I like to learn as much as I can about martial arts as well as anything else that takes my fancy, I have an enquiring mind ( though many say I'm just nosy), I realise there is so much to learn and so little time to learn it all but I'm doing my best.
What do I know about TKD? Answer... a lot more than I did because of the knowledgeable posters on here ( thank you to them) who even when they don't agree are respectful of each other. There's food for thought on this thread, sadly none of it cooked by you.