How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

For an example: The sinewave bounce in patterns - one of the desperate attemps to differentiate ITF from Shotokan, is not universally practised by ITF or equivalent. Some even outright hate it. There is no substantial diversion from Karate, however hard he may have tried.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For an example: The sinewave bounce in patterns - one of the desperate attemps to differentiate ITF from Shotokan, is not universally practised by ITF or equivalent. Some even outright hate it. There is no substantial diversion from Karate, however hard he may have tried.

LaPlace,

Being young (I am guessing under 30), you do not realize how old this unfounded critique is. It is older than you. Not only as far as TKD and MA is concerned, but other venues as well, The same guy who wrote the Steve Jobs Bio, has another book called "innovators" (Mainly based on electronics and computers) and addresses how as things are developed there are few quantum leaps, and more incremental changes.

He also addresses how some histories refer only to collaborative efforts as opposed to individual developments (Do you an anology to TKD?)

The same applies to "Modern" MA systems. You critique General Choi for basing his system on Shotokan, when in fact he readily acknowledges the strong links to the same Shorin and Shorei roots. Yet you refuse to critique other notables such as Ueshiba, Kano, and Funakoshi who developed systems yet differentiated them from their roots as well.

 

[Laplace_demon]

LaPlace,

Being young (I am guessing under 30), you do not realize how old this unfounded critique is. It is older than you. Not only as far as TKD and MA is concerned, but other venues as well, The same guy who wrote the Steve Jobs Bio, has another book called "innovators" (Mainly based on electronics and computers) and addresses how as things are developed there are few quantum leaps, and more incremental changes.

He also addresses how some histories refer only to collaborative efforts as opposed to individual developments (Do you an anology to TKD?)

The same applies to "Modern" MA systems. You critique General Choi for basing his system on Shotokan, when in fact he readily acknowledges the strong links to the same Shorin and Shorei roots. Yet you refuse to critique other notables such as Ueshiba, Kano, and Funakoshi who developed systems yet differentiated them from their roots as well.

Everybody knows ITFs origin. The question is which substantial improvements Choi brought to the table, demonstrating the supposed korean spirit, or whatever he called it. The biggest difference is the curriculum, and I don't think that was the intention. I can critique Ueshiba and the rest too, but this thread is about Taekwon-Do.

 

[Laplace_demon]

The psychology involved when accusing someone/thing of representing something you are yourself doing is called projection. That is what General Choi did in his bashing of WTF as Karate mimic.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Everybody knows ITFs origin. The question is which substantial improvements Choi brought to the table, demonstrating the supposed korean spirit, or whatever he called it. The biggest difference is the curriculum, and I don't think that was the intention. I can critique Ueshiba and the rest too, but this thread is about Taekwon-Do.

I'm just curious, and I'm not intending to make something out of nothing, but why do you capitalize Taekwondo-Do and not Korean?

 

[Tez3]

I'm just curious, and I'm not intending to make something out of nothing, but why do you capitalize Taekwondo-Do and not Korean?

He is not a native English speaker and despite what he will tell you his English, while good, is not always what it should be.

 

[Jaeimseu]

He is not a native English speaker and despite what he will tell you his English, while good, is not always what it should be.

He's clearly not a native speaker, but I wasn't trying to slam him on his English. The only word he didn't capitalize that he should have was "Korean" so I was just curious if it was an oversight or if it was done with intent.

 

[Tez3]

He's clearly not a native speaker, but I wasn't trying to slam him on his English. The only word he didn't capitalize that he should have was "Korean" so I was just curious if it was an oversight or if it was done with intent.

He has however 'slammed' all the poster's English on here and stated he is the most highly intelligent person posting so I imagine he is doing it 'with intent'.

 

[Jaeimseu]

He has however 'slammed' all the poster's English on here and stated he is the most highly intelligent person posting so I imagine he is doing it 'with intent'.

I looked back a couple of pages and found one more example. He didn't capitalize the words English, Americans, or Brits. Perhaps he doesn't realize that these things should be capitalized or perhaps he is being subtly aggressive.

 

[TrueJim]

...The same applies to "Modern" MA systems. You critique General Choi for basing his system on Shotokan, when in fact he readily acknowledges the strong links to the same Shorin and Shorei roots. Yet you refuse to critique other notables such as Ueshiba, Kano, and Funakoshi who developed systems yet differentiated them from their roots as well.

...or for people who would like a more recent example, Chuck Norris's Chun Kuk Do. As I understand it, it's not that different from Tang Soo Do:

• For his Kicho Hyeong, instead of having forms "1, 2, 3" Norris basically adds two half-way forms: "1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3" ...where 1.5 is just like 1, but with some extra kicks, and 2.5 is just like 2, but with some extra combinations.
  
  Actually, I think that's not a bad innovation. A beginner learns his first basic form, and then his second basic form is exactly the same, just with some extra kicks. If you think about it, that probably does a really nice job of making the beginning feel like they're learning something fresh at their second form, while forcing the beginning to continue to reiterate on the basics. Nice. Clever. But it doesn't really differentiate this from Tang Soo Do that much.
  
  
• Then Norris cherry-picks from the common Tang Soo Do forms to teach the ones he likes: just the Pyong Ahn forms, Bassai, and Kong Sang Koon, and Jion.
  
  So, again, not really different from Tang Soo Do. Arguably, just a subset of Tang Soo Do, presumably teaching the techniques and combinations that Norris cares about most.
  
  
• Then Norris makes up 3 new forms: two advanced unarmed forms, and one bo-staff form.

Voila! That's a recipe for Chun Kuk Do. Not that different from Tang Soo Do. But the fact that it's so much like Tang Soo Do doesn't de-legitimize Chun Kuk Do.

Or...if it does...I'm not going to be the one to tell Chuck Norris!

 

[Tez3]

I looked back a couple of pages and found one more example. He didn't capitalize the words English, Americans, or Brits. Perhaps he doesn't realize that these things should be capitalized or perhaps he is being subtly aggressive.

Probably doesn't realise, his aggression isn't subtle.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I did capitalize Korean, before I changed it. Mixed things up between languages. My spoken english (vocabulary) is stronger than my swedish. SAT scores reflect this. I can ace the english word knowledge, while my swedish test scoring is only around 50%. I have not read much litterature in swedish. The formal rules of a language is a seperate matter, including spelling. I can get very rusty in that department.

 

[Tez3]

Voila! That's a recipe for Chun Kuk Do. Not that different from Tang Soo Do. But the fact that it's so much like Tang Soo Do doesn't de-legitimize Chun Kuk Do

Tang So Do is itself very like Wado Ryu and by definition Shotokan. All these styles are now very separate and legitimate styles. I think if we try to untangle styles from each other and declare only the very first one we can find as the 'winner ie the original' we'd probably spend more time researching than training. Much better to accept that they are what they are and enjoy training in which we do.

 

[TrueJim]

I looked back a couple of pages and found one more example. He didn't capitalize the words English, Americans, or Brits. Perhaps he doesn't realize that these things should be capitalized or perhaps he is being subtly aggressive.

Sometimes in business meetings, if nobody has any ideas, I'll toss-out a bad idea so that people can criticize it. That's a good trick for getting people to think of good ideas: the act of critiquing often fosters creativity.

By analogy, maybe this is how Laplace likes to learn? He says simplistic things to see what response they elicit. If he wants more detail, he advocates even stronger for the simplistic idea, to elicit even more detail. In terms of being an effective learning strategy, it's amazingly effective, isn't it? This thread has been going on for 20 pages while we all try to summon-up more and more detail, provide more and more examples. It's brilliant!

So among the possibilities, we have these:

• He's actually executing perfectly on a brilliant learning strategy.
• He's just an internet troll.
• He's actually not that bright, and he's clinging desperately to overly-simplistic world-views.

Personally I believe that everybody on MartialTalk is inherently brilliant, so I'm going with Theory #1.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Oh, and while I am at it. Philosophers have the highest scoring on word knowledge out of all intended graduates (beating out English, haha)

GRE Scores by Intended Graduate Major

IQ Estimates by College Major Statistic Brain

 

[Tez3]

I did capitalize Korean, before I changed it. Mixed things up between languages. My spoken english (vocabulary) is stronger than my swedish. SAT scores reflect this. I can ace the english word knowledge, while my swedish test scoring is only around 50%. I have not read much litterature in swedish. The formal rules of a language is a seperate matter, including spelling. I can get very rusty in that department.

As a Swede I would have thought that would worry you because your English isn't as good as you think. Normally that wouldn't be a problem because posters here are more than tolerant of non native English speakers, they are very helpful but you alienated most with your boasting of having a higher intellect and telling us your English was better than the British and Americans. Coupled with your aggression when people disagreed with you, this has made this thread quite unpleasant at times. The willingness to try and dissect your writing to find out what you mean is palling, your English word knowledge is limited, grammar knowledge poor and syntax lacking. However it is the disrespect shown to experienced and knowledgeable TKDists who are being very patient with you that is the worst sin I think.
This is my opinion it is not a personal attack.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, and while I am at it. Philosophers have the highest scoring on word knowledge out of all intended graduates (beating out English, haha)

GRE Scores by Intended Graduate Major

IQ Estimates by College Major Statistic Brain

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[chrispillertkd]

For an example: The sinewave bounce in patterns - one of the desperate attemps to differentiate ITF from Shotokan, is not universally practised by ITF or equivalent. Some even outright hate it. There is no substantial diversion from Karate, however hard he may have tried.

Very interesting. Which of the groups that consider themselves to be the ITF do not practice sine wave?

Also, how long have you practiced Taekwon-Do in the ITF and which one?

Pax,

Chris

 

[elder999]

Here's some video, "Tae Kwon Do" in the 50's:

Start this next one at about the 11 minute mark, unless you want to watch a bunch of very Japanese-looking makiwara training.....(interesting, but it gets even more interesting at 10-11 minutes in....)

Here's some "ITF tae kwon do" from the 60's...note the lack of "bouncing" or "sine wave," and how they sink into their punches properly...

 

[Gnarlie]

Very interesting. Which of the groups that consider themselves to be the ITF do not practice sine wave?

Also, how long have you practiced Taekwon-Do in the ITF and which one?

Pax,

Chris

Laplace doesn't answer questions regarding his own experience in Taekwondo, Taekwon-Do, or Shotokan, because he doesn't seem to actually have any to speak of. He will gladly tell you about his father's experience though.