How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[TrueJim]

Because he just so happened to "change his mind" when WTF TKD got the olympics. Don't you get it?

I can't tell if you're intentionally not looking at the timing of this, or if there's just so much going on in the thread that you keep accidentally missing the date amidst all the chatter:

• In 1988, the South Korean dictatorship fell
• In 1988, taekwondo was an exhibition sport at the Seoul Olympic games

They both happened in the same year.

It's possible that Choi's change-of-heart coincided with the Olympics, but it's just as likely that it coincided with the fall of the dictatorship. They both happened in the same year. Or it could even have been a combination of the two factors. We'll never know. Any guess we make is just speculation.

 

[TrueJim]

And what I say has to be taken into the context of highest IQ in the room.

When I go to parties, here's my party-trick for finding the smartest people in the room: Look around at all the conversations going on. Make note of who is doing all the talking, and which people are listening attentively. The smartest people in the room are almost always the ones who are listening attentively.

In my experience, the smarter a person is, the less they talk, the more they listen. It's the really quiet ones you gotta keep your eyes on.

 

[elder999]

When I go to parties, here's my party-trick for finding the smartest people in the room: Look around at all the conversations going on. Make note of who is doing all the talking, and which people are listening attentively. The smartest people in the room are almost always the ones who are listening attentively.

In my experience, the smarter a person is, the less they talk, the more they listen. It's the really quiet ones you gotta keep your eyes on.

I'd just add (because so many of them do like to hear themselves talk) that I've worked with some of the smartest people in the world.

They very seldom declare themselves as such, though-not even "smartest in town," or "smartest in the building," or "smartest in the room."

The person who can make any legitimate claim of that sort, usually does not do so.

 

[Tez3]

The person who can make any legitimate claim of that sort, usually does not do so

And any woman who has to tell you she's a lady, isn't.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Do you think his statements were respectful? Would he have been banned on MartialTalk?

If General Choi were still alive and wanted to participate in MartialTalk but refused to follow the guidelines in conversations here, then he would indeed have been banned.

Because this forum was created for the purpose of allowing practitioners of different arts to have friendly conversation, we have rules to discourage style-bashing. In the outside world no such rules exist. Plenty of historically important martial artists have been happy to promote their arts by running down others. They can do that elsewhere, but not here. (As a BJJ practitioner, I have to admit that Helio Gracie in his prime would probably have gotten himself banned from MartialTalk very quickly.)

My english far exceeds yours. I write very quickly here. You can pretend to yourself that as a native speaker it's greater than mine, despite the fact that both brits and americans butcher their own language at a regular basis.

You should probably look up the Dunning-Kruger effect and consider it carefully.

 

[TrueJim]

One thing Ive always been interested about is to think about where Korean martial arts would be and whatd they look like if they didnt have the years of Japanese Martial Arts influence from the time of occupation.

I agree. This...I think...is a much more interesting question to speculate on.

• One thing I've never been able to figure out is the extent to which indigenous Korean martial arts had already died-out before the occupation. Like, I've read that taekyon wasn't practiced that much any more, but what does "that much" mean? Does that mean there were only dozens of schools left, or only hundreds? Did only one style of taekyon survive up to the occupation, or many?
  
  
• How many different styles of taekyon were there in all? Like, I've heard about one style called Bang Soo Do, but and I've read that there were different styles...but, how many different styles in total? What were they called?
  
  
• What exactly is the relationship between Soobak and Taeykon? Some authors seem to refer to Taekyon as one style of Soobak, others seem to refer to Soobak as one style of Taekyon. It's very confusing.
  
  
• Regarding the thing we still call taekyon today, which style was that? How much is modern taekyon really like traditional taekyon?
  
  
• Boolkyo Mu Sool...the martial arts practiced in Korea in Buddhist temples...how much was that like the arts practiced in China? Was it still practiced in Korea before the Japanese occupation, or had it already died out?
  
  
• People seem to use the term Gwon Beop (Kwon Bop) in so many different ways. Was Gwon Beop a style, or just a generic term for unarmed combat? Or both (like the way we use the word Kleenex).
  
  
• Is modern Kung Jung Mu Sul (royal-court martial arts) really anything like ancient Kung Jung Mu Sul? Or is that just marketing?
  
  
• What was T'ang Su? For that matter, what the heck is Chabi?

I've read a lot of different sources, and I get contradictory answers to a lot of these questions.

Korean martial arts - Taekwondo Wiki

If lots of Korean martial arts were still being practiced in Korea before the occupation, would karate have made the inroads it did in Korea?

Or would these other martial arts have just incorporated karate traditions (the way karate adopted so many traditions from judo)?

From what I can tell from English-language sources, it seems that not that much is really known about pre-occupation martial arts. Or does it just seem that way because all the really useful sources have never been translated from Korean?

 

[RTKDCMB]

And any woman who has to tell you she's a lady, isn't.

And never trust someone who says "trust me".

 

[Laplace_demon]

I can't tell if you're intentionally not looking at the timing of this, or if there's just so much going on in the thread that you keep accidentally missing the date amidst all the chatter:

• In 1988, the South Korean dictatorship fell
• In 1988, taekwondo was an exhibition sport at the Seoul Olympic games

They both happened in the same year.

It's possible that Choi's change-of-heart coincided with the Olympics, but it's just as likely that it coincided with the fall of the dictatorship. They both happened in the same year. Or it could even have been a combination of the two factors. We'll never know. Any guess we make is just speculation.

I am referring to 1999-2000, when Taekwondo became an olympic sport. Before that, Choi badmouthed and discredited WTF earlier in the 90s. The clip was posted. He is an opportunist.

 

[Tez3]

He is an opportunist.

He may have been but you do realise he isn't now due to being dead?

So when did you meet him and have this heart to heart which enables you to tell us so precisely his thoughts, motives and feelings? I'm betting his family didn't know him as well as you claim to.

 

[Drose427]

I agree. This...I think...is a much more interesting question to speculate on.

• One thing I've never been able to figure out is the extent to which indigenous Korean martial arts had already died-out before the occupation. Like, I've read that taekyon wasn't practiced that much any more, but what does "that much" mean? Does that mean there were only dozens of schools left, or only hundreds? Did only one style of taekyon survive up to the occupation, or many?
  
  
• How many different styles of taekyon were there in all? Like, I've heard about one style called Bang Soo Do, but and I've read that there were different styles...but, how many different styles in total? What were they called?
  
  
• What exactly is the relationship between Soobak and Taeykon? Some authors seem to refer to Taekyon as one style of Soobak, others seem to refer to Soobak as one style of Taekyon. It's very confusing.
  
  
• Regarding the thing we still call taekyon today, which style was that? How much is modern taekyon really like traditional taekyon?
  
  
• Boolkyo Mu Sool...the martial arts practiced in Korea in Buddhist temples...how much was that like the arts practiced in China? Was it still practiced in Korea before the Japanese occupation, or had it already died out?
  
  
• People seem to use the term Gwon Beop (Kwon Bop) in so many different ways. Was Gwon Beop a style, or just a generic term for unarmed combat? Or both (like the way we use the word Kleenex).
  
  
• Is modern Kung Jung Mu Sul (royal-court martial arts) really anything like ancient Kung Jung Mu Sul? Or is that just marketing?
  
  
• What was T'ang Su? For that matter, what the heck is Chabi?

I've read a lot of different sources, and I get contradictory answers to a lot of these questions.

Korean martial arts - Taekwondo Wiki

If lots of Korean martial arts were still being practiced in Korea before the occupation, would karate have made the inroads it did in Korea?

Or would these other martial arts have just incorporated karate traditions (the way karate adopted so many traditions from judo)?

From what I can tell from English-language sources, it seems that not that much is really known about pre-occupation martial arts. Or does it just seem that way because all the really useful sources have never been translated from Korean?

Youre far more knowledgable overall than I am, so as far as i can speculate for now (ill look more into the stuff you brought up like kung jung mu sul)

I personally considered Taekyyon uncommon, but something one could find if they looked. But without living in Korea at the time, who knows? It could have been 5 guys traveling around trying to teach it

Ive heard a myriad of conflicting things about taekyyon and how it ties into soo bak. I first read somewhere that soobak was taekyuons predeccessor, then a different style, etc. Its all so confusing that I wish there was more on it!

As for taekyyon, i personally think its fairly safe to say its modern revivals are fairly different from tge traditional versions. It just make sense that people would throw in mixes of modern TKD to help fill in the holes.

A couple things ive always wondered about Koream Martial Arts;

Ssireum has always been popular in Korea, without Japanese influence, would we have seen a "Korean Jiu Jitsu?" Would the Korean Martial arts have expanded down the grappling road instead of striking?

As for the Hwarang, why havent more of the combat systems they learned survived? Or at least had more documentation? From what ive read, they were essentially koreas version of European Knights or Japanese Samurai, both of which people have peen able to recreate the fighting arts of.

But, ultimately Japan spent years doing whatever they could to oppress and eradicate Korean culture and hurt the Korean People. Who knows how much history could have been lost during that time?

Or It could have been like you said, maybe we're just ill informed because these things havent been translated that much

 

[TrueJim]

Here you can hear General Choi openly bash WTF(KKW), saying that he does not concider it to be TKD, that they only borrowed the name, and that it's a poor mimic of Karate (Karate he says is much better).

Later in the 90s, when WTF were to be accepted into the olympics...

Ahhhhh, now I understand.....I thought you were referring to the 1990s as a whole when you wrote "later in the 90s" in the above. Taekwondo was an exhibition sport at the 1988, 1992, and 1996 Olympics.

In the year 2000, the IOC announced that taekwondo would be a regular sport in the 2004 Olympics.

What years is that video from? That might shed some light on this. If it's from 1999, I believe taekwondo hadn't yet made it into the Olympics as a regular sport? But I would imagine that by that time, there were probably strong indications among those in-the-know that it would make it.

 

[TrueJim]

As for the Hwarang, why havent more of the combat systems they learned survived? Or at least had more documentation?

It's a good question. Two things to keep in mind:

• Korea didn't have its own writing system (Hangul) until 1443 C.E. As I understand it, before that, Koreans who wish to read or write had to use Chinese characters (Hanja), which meant very few people read or wrote, so there really wasn't a whole lot of documentation about anything, as compared to other cultures which had already had their own indigenous writing systems for many centuries.
  
  
• Even if there had been tons of great Hanja documentation about the Hwarang, most of it would have been destroyed by the Mongol invasion of 1231 C.E. anyway, when the Mongols basically burned the bulk of all written records in Korea. ("John Green - queue the Mongoltage!")

Silla had its heyday from about 400 C.E. until about 900 C.E.? So presumably that would have been the heyday of the Hwarang as well? If so, who knows...maybe there were whole encyclopedias devoted to the Hwarang, but they were all destroyed by the Mongols. Darn you Mongols!

 

[Laplace_demon]

Ahhhhh, now I understand.....I thought you were referring to the 1990s as a whole when you wrote "later in the 90s" in the above. Taekwondo was an exhibition sport at the 1988, 1992, and 1996 Olympics.

In the year 2000, the IOC announced that taekwondo would be a regular sport in the 2004 Olympics.

What years is that video from? That might shed some light on this. If it's from 1999, I believe taekwondo hadn't yet made it into the Olympics as a regular sport? But I would imagine that by that time, there were probably strong indications among those in-the-know that it would make it.

I don't know, but my guess is that the video I posted is perhaps 5 years before 1999 - when there were serious talks of adding TKD as an olympic sport (which was ultimately realised in 2000, and Choi was suddenly of a very different opinion about the ITF and WTF difference)

 

[Laplace_demon]

Actually, the UFC was new (Choi was asked about it), so the video is probably from 1993.

 

[TrueJim]

Actually, the UFC was new (Choi was asked about it), so the video is probably from 1993.

I have to be honest then...knowing now that the video was probably from 1993, and knowing that it would still be a solid decade before taekwondo was competed as a regular sport in the Olympics, I think that lends even more credence to the possibility that Choi was at least as happy about Kukki-style's disassociation from the pre-1998 dictatorship as he was about Kukki-style's growing possibility as an Olympic sport.

You have to remember, back then, Kukki-style was almost a "bad word" among some Koreans, because of it's association with the dictatorship. And since it was still being called "taekwondo" -- a name that Choi had so strongly advocated for -- I bet that really bothered Choi, given how much he hated the dictatorship.

It would be like...imagine if you made up a new sport called Laplace-ball, and it became really popular among modern-day terrorists. How happy would YOU be when those terrorists were finally caught, and Laplace-ball suddenly became popular with the Olympic-committee instead! I don't know about you, but I'd be dancing a jig! That wouldn't be an example of me "changing my mind" so much as me "finally relieved that the sport I helped invent was out of the hands of somebody I despise."

 

[Laplace_demon]

I have to be honest then...knowing now that the video was probably from 1993, and knowing that it would still be a solid decade before taekwondo was competed as a regular sport in the Olympics, I think that lends even more credence to the possibility that Choi was at least as happy about Kukki-style's disassociation from the pre-1998 dictatorship as he was about Kukki-style's growing possibility as an Olympic sport.

You have to remember, back then, Kukki-style was almost a "bad word" among some Koreans, because of it's association with the dictatorship. And since it was still being called "taekwondo" -- a name that Choi had so strongly advocated for -- I bet that really bothered Choi, given how much he hated the dictatorship.

It would be like...imagine if you made up a new sport called Laplace-ball, and it became really popular among modern-day terrorists. How happy would YOU be when those terrorists were finally caught, and Laplace-ball suddenly became popular with the Olympic-committee instead! I don't know about you, but I'd be dancing a jig! That wouldn't be an example of me "changing my mind" so much as me "finally relieved that the sport I helped invent was out of the hands of somebody I despise."

Perhaps. Chois bashing was not politics, though. He went into great details about their forms and techniques and did not concider them to be legitimate TKD stylists. In fact, Choi went as far as saying that there is only one TKD, which he himself "invented". Pretty straight forward statements, politics notwithstanding. It's not as if he discredited them on philosophical/spiritual grounds.

 

[Gnarlie]

From a certain perspective, I agree with Choi; there is only one 'Do'.

There are however an infinite number of ways to experience and perceive it, even just within the realm of 'Taekwon'. General Choi found one of them, and every other Taekwondoin finds their own.

Nobody owns or invented 'Do', and nobody can stake a claim to it. It just is. Trying to claim ownership of a mode of experiencing existence is like trying to register a patent for breathing, and then criticising other breathers because only the way of breathing that you have patented is the right way.

I guess how people see this would depend on whether they just want to learn someone else's system, or they go beyond that and make it their own journey.

I do think though that back at the time of the naming of Taekwondo, there were a lot of Koreans doing a lot of different martial arts with a lot of different influences. Giving something a name does not change its essence, and claiming ownership of something does not make one its owner.

I would acknowledge Choi as a highly influential figure in the development of Taekwon-Do both in the 50s and as we know it today. The flip side of that is that many other people with many other influences were involved at the point of the unification of Kwans, and their experience prior to the unification as an influence upon what Taekwondo has become should not IMO be ignored.

Either way, we are left with an awesome and diverse technical and philosophical legacy, and personally, I'll take what I can get from all sources to help me on my journey.

 

[Laplace_demon]

People did not understand my Karate comment. It's ironic of General Choi to labell the KKW as Karate copycats, when his own formed ITF is a much bigger copycat of (Shotokan) Karate than KKW.

 

[Tez3]

People did not understand my Karate comment. It's ironic of General Choi to labell the KKW as Karate copycats, when his own formed ITF is a much bigger copycat of (Shotokan) Karate than KKW.

Which comment?

 

[Gnarlie]

People did not understand my Karate comment. It's ironic of General Choi to labell the KKW as Karate copycats, when his own formed ITF is a much bigger copycat of (Shotokan) Karate than KKW.

I think both departed from the Shotokan influence fairly early on. Some of the combinations and end positions of movements may be the same, but both the way of moving and what is behind the movements are very different and have been for a long time.