How crucial is the knowledge of the instructor when training for real life violence?

[Apatride]

On second reading, I notice that my post can appear as aggressive. Sorry for this, it was not on purpose.

The point is more that what you need to know about SD depends on where you live and the kind of threat you might face.

In Ireland, the lads learn how to fight during rugby, hurling and Irish football games. The gentlemen fighting is still the rule here in 99% of the situations and it is more social fighting rather than pure criminal violence. Quite often, walking away (or appologising) is efficient. This is a good thing considering that the guys here are usually strong, fit and quite often walking around with their hurley (hurling stick, looking like a small wooden golf club). No firearms in the country, not many people carrying knives so defence against sticks and empty hands are the way to go.

In France, the typical situation looks like a group of 12 to 18 years old with box cutters and knives in their pockets picking on you for fun (including in the middle of a crowd). They will kick you when you are down, they might stab you, rape your GF (even in a train in the middle of the day)... If you manage to fight your way out, they will find you and be 10 instead of 5. I still have to figure out a better solution than avoiding looking at them and avoiding them and, if it does not work, run. This can be summarised as "not being worth the effort".

So I have trouble understanding the reality of the USA. I watch movies, of course, but I am not sure how far they are from reality.

On the post about robbery in the house next door (meth addicts with a crowbar), it has been advised to equip the house gun with a tactical flashlight, get a second (big) dog and even move to another place. Are things really that bad in the US that you have to consider these options? (once again, no judgement intended).

It is getting a bit off topic so I will try to come back to it quickly:
My last instructor was a filipino guy with a Filipino way of seeing violence. He is not a bad martial artist and what he considers being self defense might be good in the Philippines but in Ireland, it is the shortest road to jail.
So being a good SD instructor is definitely way more than being a good fighter and the more I think about the issue, the more I have the feeling that very few people could be good SD instructors on their own.

 

[MJS]

On second reading, I notice that my post can appear as aggressive. Sorry for this, it was not on purpose.

Nope, I didn't take your posts that way at all.

The point is more that what you need to know about SD depends on where you live and the kind of threat you might face.

True. A larger city could have more muggings with guns and knives, whereas a smaller town may not. I'm simply saying that we, as martial artists, should not be lax and take for granted that we wont get attacked. Like I said, I live in a small town. Of course, that doesnt mean that I coudln't get attacked with a knife.

In Ireland, the lads learn how to fight during rugby, hurling and Irish football games. The gentlemen fighting is still the rule here in 99% of the situations and it is more social fighting rather than pure criminal violence. Quite often, walking away (or appologising) is efficient. This is a good thing considering that the guys here are usually strong, fit and quite often walking around with their hurley (hurling stick, looking like a small wooden golf club). No firearms in the country, not many people carrying knives so defence against sticks and empty hands are the way to go.

In France, the typical situation looks like a group of 12 to 18 years old with box cutters and knives in their pockets picking on you for fun (including in the middle of a crowd). They will kick you when you are down, they might stab you, rape your GF (even in a train in the middle of the day)... If you manage to fight your way out, they will find you and be 10 instead of 5. I still have to figure out a better solution than avoiding looking at them and avoiding them and, if it does not work, run. This can be summarised as "not being worth the effort".

So I have trouble understanding the reality of the USA. I watch movies, of course, but I am not sure how far they are from reality.

On the post about robbery in the house next door (meth addicts with a crowbar), it has been advised to equip the house gun with a tactical flashlight, get a second (big) dog and even move to another place. Are things really that bad in the US that you have to consider these options? (once again, no judgement intended).

It is getting a bit off topic so I will try to come back to it quickly:
My last instructor was a filipino guy with a Filipino way of seeing violence. He is not a bad martial artist and what he considers being self defense might be good in the Philippines but in Ireland, it is the shortest road to jail.
So being a good SD instructor is definitely way more than being a good fighter and the more I think about the issue, the more I have the feeling that very few people could be good SD instructors on their own.

Good points.

 

[K831]

So I have trouble understanding the reality of the USA. I watch movies, of course, but I am not sure how far they are from reality.

I have lived in the UK, and I remember people saying "I have a hard time understanding what its like in the USA...."

There are several reasons our friends across the pond run into trouble with this, and why internet forums such as this make it soooo hard.

I lived for a long time on a farm/ranch in Montana. I also lived for years in a Los Angeles California. The country of Scotland would fit into Montana multiple times, and Montana is just one of many states.

The difference between living in rural Montana from living in down town L.A. so different, it's hard to put into words.

Where I lived in Montana, everyone left their keys in the ignition of their car, in L.A., well, it you had to be very cautious and very aware.

I know live in Phoenix, AZ. From where I live, in a 30 min drive I can be in areas that are highly dangerous and high risk of violent crime, and yet, driving 30 min. in another direction can be in a rural farming community that is very safe and very friendly.

This is not intended as a pissing contest regarding the size of countries etc, rather and attempt to illustrate why you may have some Americans on a board like this who don't feel much need to be prepared for extreme violence, and someone in the same state may make it part of their daily routine.

All countries reflect some of that (for example, while in Scotland I lived in safe areas (Parts of the boarders like Galashiels or up north just outside of Inverness) but also lived in some pretty rough areas (Parts of Glasgow, Port Glasgow/Greenock, Paisley/Ferguslie Park etc).

On the post about robbery in the house next door (meth addicts with a crowbar), it has been advised to equip the house gun with a tactical flashlight, get a second (big) dog and even move to another place. Are things really that bad in the US that you have to consider these options? (once again, no judgement intended).

This is in part related to what I mentioned above, but it is also cultural. You have to understand some long held traditions and roots of US culture.

Our history is much shorter than Europe, and as such, the "frontier" mindset is in our recent collective memory. With that comes the individualism and strong tendency toward self sufficiency and self reliance. US is unique as a culture in our general distrust of big government and our desire to rely on individual self or small collective community. This includes protection from threats. We have a gun culture in the USA that most other countries find odd.

Even if it isn't immediately pressing (i.e a fairly safe neighborhood) many Americans would rather have a big dog and an adequately set up SD pistol/shotgun etc for that 1 in a billion chance than have to wait on the cops. Its just how a lot of us grew up.

My last instructor was a filipino guy with a Filipino way of seeing violence. He is not a bad martial artist and what he considers being self defense might be good in the Philippines but in Ireland, it is the shortest road to jail.

As with all man made constructs (Laws) and societal norms, what is considered appropriate in the name of SD is always in flux. Regardless, I prefer to have all the tools at my disposal, and then choose the level of aggression to being limited in what I can do. I would also sit happily in jail if I sat there knowing I protected my wife and kids, but a broken system burned me for it.

Maybe that clarifies some of the statements that appear incongruent about crime/violence in the US.

 

[namelekane4]

A few years ago, I had the tragic experience of losing one of our top students in our Karate class. He was stabbed through the head and the knife broke off in his skull. He was not just one of our normal students, he was also one of the assistant instructors of the class and when he needed his skills the most, it failed him.

Numerous times have I heard of top martial arts practitioners being seriously hurt or even killed in a real fight, but the times when they stepped in the ring under controlled environments they were brilliant.

These were some of the reasons I stopped doing karate back then and started focusing on techniques that would actually be effective in real life. I also started to research and study all the factors involved in real world violence and had the chance to apply what I have trained myself to do during actual fights (back when I was still a bit reckless and before I met my wife).

Dear sir first of all I'm sorry for the lost of your comrad or your assistant instructor, it is not a good feeling to have gone through. I also teach SD for the streets but I don't think that I can prepare any student or even myself to be actually ready for the ultimate situation. I've been doing this for a while now and that, knock on wood I've not been attacked violently enough by a person who wanted to hurt me so bad as to wanting to kill me. I've been in a few brawls in my past but the most assault that I've encountered was a knife attack. The person came in straight forward, and I was very lucky in my timing in the defense to getting the knife out of his hands. Now if I was a split second too fast I would have cut myself or even a split second too slow I probably would not be typing this response to you this morning. There is no insurance that what ever you do will work, but you as a trained warrior you have a better chance of walking away from the situation as compared to a person that has not the trainning to boot. I hope that this makes sense to you, and good luck in your search for SD trainning.

When I hear stories like that I can't help but think; besides factors that could've been beyond his control, what exactly was he being taught in training.

The most that I can think of is too much confidense that the particular technique will work. Not so true every time.

 

[Apatride]

Thank you for these explanations.

There are still a few things that I do not get but I guess that the part explaining that people are used to protect themselves instead of relying on the police to do it is the main difference. The opposite is true in places where I have lived, you are likely to get into lots of trouble if you decide to do the police job, no matter if they do it or not.

Regarding the fact that it is better to have the tools and not use them rather than not having the tools when you need them, I tend to agree for extreme situations (the kind of situation we hope we will never face) but I also think that this has some dangerous limitations in almost every other situation. Regarding the SD training I got, I see 2 main issues:

1) The training was not realistic and I still have to find realistic training in Ireland. Knowing a wrist locking technique by heart is completely useless if you never manage to catch the wrist. In the Trad MA trainings I had, the guy was giving his wrist to you, this will never happen in a real situation. In the SD trainings I had, the guy started by throwing fast, non committed, weak punches (landing at least a foot short) to show that you could not grab a punch despite all your training and then started to punch extremely slowly when it came to apply "his" technique. So the problem is not only the instructor but the fact that, as far as I have seen, realistic training is not available (and to be honest, I would not want a training as dangerous as the thing I want to learn to avoid...)

2) If I am lucky and I manage to grab something, 90% of the techniques I have been taught and that I was applying instinctively during the seminar would kill or maim the opponent. Winning a fight in the streets and ending up fighting every day in the jail showers is not really appealing to me.

So at the moment, let alone my Thai boxing training (in progress, I am just a beginner), I would either lose the fight due to my lack of ability to deal with an aggressive opponent or be lucky enough to be fighting with a guy who does not know what he is doing and end up applying much more force than the situation requested.
And to be honest, I don t expect Thai boxing to give me a solution about this. I think that fighting not compliant opponents is a good thing but I am learning how to last for 5 X 2 minutes rounds, not to end a fight quickly so I expect to get bad habits too.

My conclusion: Is there such a thing as SD training ?

 

[Bruno@MT]

My conclusion: Is there such a thing as SD training ?

Yes. You go to the nearest biker cafe, scratch one of the bikes or insult one of the bikers. Then you practice your self defense skills. After you regain conciousness and learn to walk again and eat solid food, go back and do it all over. Repeat until you leave the premises on your legs. That is, if you survive, and if you do not get charged with aggravated assault or manslaughter because of what you did to someone else.

More seriously: You can of course train in various ways in order to prepare yourself, but the only time you'll discover if you're any good and getting experience is by doing it. Kinda like sex

 

[jks9199]

Is there such a thing as SD training?

Yes. Quite definitely. There are two ways to approach self-defense training. You can do it in the context of a martial arts class, though you have to restructure your training compared to most programs. Or you can do dedicated training in self-defense. Police DT programs are (when well constructed) good examples of this.

Generally, self defense training must be fairly easy to learn, relying on gross body skills rather than complex technical skills, since under the adrenaline dump of an actual encounter, those fine motor skills are likely to be unavailable. In fact, the training must expose you to the adrenaline dump in various fashions. The techniques should be simple and direct, and reflect the realities of violent encounters rather than the fantasies of tv and movies.

 

[K831]

1) The training was not realistic and I still have to find realistic training in Ireland.

I know we have an AKKI (Kenpo) rep in Ireland. I can look into it if you would like. I am pretty sure one of the IKMA (Krav Maga) guys on the forum here mentioned they have a rep in Ireland too... either of these options would give you more immediately useful SD training, including defense against sticks/clubs and edged weapons.

I'm glad my explanations helped, at least a little.

 

[Apatride]

Bruno:
In deed, the analogy with sex made me think that the way of training "safely" would be the same: Go in a pub near closing time and pick up a girl who is still walking or a fight with a guy who is still walking (might be difficult to find here )

K831:
I still have to try KravMaga here but unfortunately transportation is an issue. For Kenpo, I do not think there is any club nearby (Cork) so same transportation issue.

Now I am not 100% sure that it is a question of which MA you choose. I understand what MJS is saying and I agree that MAs based on complicated moves are probably not the shortest way to go when it comes to SD. But none of the MA I have tried here were addressing anything else than the pure MA aspect of SD. I have heard that the Krav guys here were trying to reproduce "street" environments but unfortunately, I still haven t tried it and from what I have heard, they still don t address the stress related issues (they switch the lights on and off, put loud music on but it is still a training environment).

The problem I have and Bruno summarize it well in his "signature" is that either you learn "deadly" stuff and you never apply it in training or you go full force in training with things that are "not that dangerous". This is what I saw in my MA training here. Now I guess that someone good enough should be able to take advantage of the sport MA to learn things like timing and distance and still be able to apply the Trad MA techniques once he gets in position but I am not sure where you can learn how to do it efficiently and, more importantly, safely.

So if I end up with only gross motor skills anyway, boxing seems a good way to deal with the problem. It might not make me a good street fighter but it improves my fitness so I can punch harder, get used to getting punched and, more importantly, run faster and longer

 

[Master Dan]

A few years ago, I had the tragic experience of losing one of our top students in our Karate class. He was stabbed through the head and the knife broke off in his skull. He was not just one of our normal students, he was also one of the assistant instructors of the class and when he needed his skills the most, it failed him.

Numerous times have I heard of top martial arts practitioners being seriously hurt or even killed in a real fight, but the times when they stepped in the ring under controlled environments they were brilliant.

These were some of the reasons I stopped doing karate back then and started focusing on techniques that would actually be effective in real life. I also started to research and study all the factors involved in real world violence and had the chance to apply what I have trained myself to do during actual fights (back when I was still a bit reckless and before I met my wife).

When I hear stories like that I can't help but think; besides factors that could've been beyond his control, what exactly was he being taught in training.

What do you guys say about this?

You bring some very valid points first that there is risk involved in all violent confrontations period. A vast majority of so called experts cannot function under duress due to common issues related to basic human reactions to stress hence choking. Reactive training so to speak the techinque is not working what to do to enhance it or immediately indentify another target of oportunity.

To many people have been trained using many complex movements learning possibly 100 to serveral hundred techniques a large tool box so to speak how can anyone reactively perform as instinct digging through the box looking for just the right tool? Students Blacke belts need to have preselected minimal moves 5 or 6 in a tool belt that are instinctive.

Mental conditioning or risk assesment understanding what can happen to you and the real risk of how much damage will you really have to do to that person are you truly willing to do real damage possibbly kill them and face the legal issues right or wrong.

The failure of people to do that mental conditioning and to make a final mental commitment before any violence presents itself causes hesitation and a physical lock when combined with the adrenalin drop.

In addition our media culture of repeated exposure to violence even repedative techniques in the MA's causes a mental condition that when it jumps up unexpectedly a natural mental response is to believe its not real in cannot be happening to me combined with addrenalin drop its the old dear in the head lights.

I walked in on a Hapkido master teaching a basic head push and I asked why are you eliminating the nerves on the nose. He then demonstrated that if I applied that on him he would not move his head not wishing to take it to the next step and embarris him in front of his student I let it go but of course his head did not go back he was mentally and physically committed to that specific application, First in Hapkido according to Dr. Park if an application begins to meet resistance you add a softening technique so you can apply it by striking another area for its effect but also to change thier attention to another area.

The whole premise of MA is not to do what is expected but to surpprise or hit with out warning. That is exacty why supposed experts get hurt because the non expert is capable of doing anything in a non standard way unexpected?

I find it dangerous to say anything is all one way or the other like saying all or majority of atackers are feable? The hardcore element that has already hurt people before have made the mental commitment to do it again with out thinking which puts any person regardless of what they can do jumping tall buildings in a single bound at risk of getting hurt or killed.

I tell my students its not about having blinding speed and vast numbers of techniques but having determined controled applications to specific areas when you need to calmly as if you could do it in your sleep knowing what if feels like in your own body then fully understanding what you intend to do to other person with out any reservations.

Can you learn that from people who have not had that experience? good question. I have trained with both and for me it does make a difference. I try to give that to my students so they can survive not believing they can do what they will never be able to do. Each one is unique.

 

[elwin]

Training does not turn anyone into a Superman, and anyone who tells you it does, doesnt know what they're talking about. Yes, it gives you an edge, but no, it doesnt mean that you wont or couldnt get your *** kicked, end up seriously hurt or worse...dead.

Are there questionable things in the arts? Sure. When it comes to techniques, for myself, I want to make sure that what I'm doing works for me, despite whether or not it worked for my teacher, his teacher, or his teachers teacher. This is another reason why I feel that we should always look at our art, and make sure that its up with the times.

Of course, I think its also important to train or talk to people who've had some real world experience. Its amazing the knowledge that can be gained, talking and/or training with someone who has tested their stuff. People such as LEOs, Correction Officers, etc., can be a wealth of knowledge when it comes to seperating the flash from the effective stuff.

The thing is, I believe that when someone want's to start learning martial arts or self defense it's not all about sports. Most people, whether subcontiously or with intent, are concerned about their ability to defend themselves effectively in real life. They are in search of knowledge and training that in reality, will make them more confident, safer and more "in control" beings. Knowledge and training that might save their lives one day. (Although you do get those who just do it for their ego's, as well as others that wants to avoid real life humiliation. They mostly base their training on the fighting aspect and discard the rest.)

When someone puts himself in the position of providing this knowledge, providing this training, as instructor, sensei, author or whatever, he must make 100% sure that what he teaches is as accurate as possible. That knowledge and training will become part of each of his students, and what they train they will do when it comes down to it.

He does'nt need to have real life violent experiences to have knowledge about it. He just need to put in the time and effort to constantly study every aspect of it and to find ways to effectively avoid it, escape it or effectively fight to survive it.

 

[MJS]

Thank you for these explanations.

There are still a few things that I do not get but I guess that the part explaining that people are used to protect themselves instead of relying on the police to do it is the main difference. The opposite is true in places where I have lived, you are likely to get into lots of trouble if you decide to do the police job, no matter if they do it or not.

I dont believe I said anything about doing the job of the police. The police can't be everywhere all the time. Yes, they patrol, and they come when you call them, but no, they're not stationed outside your house 24-7, they're not on every street corner 24-7. That being said, IMHO, I feel that you need to be capable of protecting yourself. Its not my job to chase after someone who just robbed a bank, its not my job to chase after them, if they attack me, I defend myself, and they run away. That is the job of the police.

Regarding the fact that it is better to have the tools and not use them rather than not having the tools when you need them, I tend to agree for extreme situations (the kind of situation we hope we will never face) but I also think that this has some dangerous limitations in almost every other situation. Regarding the SD training I got, I see 2 main issues:

1) The training was not realistic and I still have to find realistic training in Ireland. Knowing a wrist locking technique by heart is completely useless if you never manage to catch the wrist. In the Trad MA trainings I had, the guy was giving his wrist to you, this will never happen in a real situation. In the SD trainings I had, the guy started by throwing fast, non committed, weak punches (landing at least a foot short) to show that you could not grab a punch despite all your training and then started to punch extremely slowly when it came to apply "his" technique. So the problem is not only the instructor but the fact that, as far as I have seen, realistic training is not available (and to be honest, I would not want a training as dangerous as the thing I want to learn to avoid...)

2) If I am lucky and I manage to grab something, 90% of the techniques I have been taught and that I was applying instinctively during the seminar would kill or maim the opponent. Winning a fight in the streets and ending up fighting every day in the jail showers is not really appealing to me.

1) Well, I dont think thats limited to just your area. I think its safe to say thats something that could happen anywhere. People train for various reasons, and I've started threads on this very topic...the serious vs the casual student. Myself, I'm more of the serious student. Does every single student I teach, find what I'm teaching, useful, if it doesnt fit their model of training? Probably not, but thats fine. My goal is to teach something effective. If they choose not to take that, because they're more interested in the fitness ascpet of training, fine. But no, I'm not going to gear the lesson to one person in particular.

Does every teacher teach like this? No. That being said, alot of the times its up to the student to ensure they're getting the training that they need.

2) This is why we, as martial artists, need to be able to adapt and adjust to whats happening at the time. I should be able to take a Kenpo tech, and tone it down a bit. In other words, against a lapel grab. Do I have to break/dislocate the arm, gouge the eyes, and kick the groin? Of course not. But, again, its up to the Kenpo student to examine their techs. Of course, the teacher should be teaching other options as well. I should be able to substitute the eye gouge for a palm to the face, and the dislocation to the arm, to an arm lock. Problem is, is that too many times, people get to wrapped up in the techs. They get so bound by them, that they can't figure out another way, because they havent trained to deviate away from the base moves.

My conclusion: Is there such a thing as SD training ?

Yes, its out there.

 

[MJS]

The thing is, I believe that when someone want's to start learning martial arts or self defense it's not all about sports. Most people, whether subcontiously or with intent, are concerned about their ability to defend themselves effectively in real life. They are in search of knowledge and training that in reality, will make them more confident, safer and more "in control" beings. Knowledge and training that might save their lives one day. (Although you do get those who just do it for their ego's, as well as others that wants to avoid real life humiliation. They mostly base their training on the fighting aspect and discard the rest.)

When someone puts himself in the position of providing this knowledge, providing this training, as instructor, sensei, author or whatever, he must make 100% sure that what he teaches is as accurate as possible. That knowledge and training will become part of each of his students, and what they train they will do when it comes down to it.

He does'nt need to have real life violent experiences to have knowledge about it. He just need to put in the time and effort to constantly study every aspect of it and to find ways to effectively avoid it, escape it or effectively fight to survive it.

You're right...training does give you those things. But, the training is only as good as the person doing it. Martial arts are not magical. I've been training for over 20yrs. Nothing says that I couldnt end up dead during a mugging. Again, it should give me the edge, but no, it does not make me immune to death. Again, anyone telling you it does, is selling you snake oil.

As for the real life experience....we'll never replicate 100%, a real life attack. Sure, we can come close, thru scenario training and drills, but having that RL exp. is a plus. One of my teachers has worked in Corrections for over 20yrs. He's currently a Capt. and works in investigations, but I value his exp. due to the fact that he has access to quite a bit. We've talked many times, about scenarios and I think this is important, as its going to be more of the way things are, vs. what someone in a dojo, with no background, is telling you they're going to be like. JKS mentioned this in an earlier post.

 

[elwin]

Nicely said!