Hot head rolling partner

[Gerry Seymour]

Well so far it is only headhunter who he rages at and is dangerous to.

From what he has said, this is an issue beyond just HH. Others have learned to let him win, to avoid the issue (which is doing exactly the opposite of what you suggested it would - it brings less realism to their training). But what happens when that new guy doesn't know?

 

[drop bear]

I can't agree with that if it's an uncontrolled person in the dojo/gym, db. So long as their partner can control them, it's not an issue in free rolling, but people are having to let him win to keep him from raging, so it's not adding realism to their fight training. And what happens when some new guy doesn't know this, does what he can to try to submit the kid, manages to submit him once, and then has this kid trying to actually hurt them?

This isn't the same as having someone push people and go hard, risking some injuries with agreement.

Yeah but headhunter doesn't run the gym. So it is just about one personality conflict with two guys who can't control their egos.

If he is being horrible to some noob. Then you go over there and crush him next roll.

 

[drop bear]

From what he has said, this is an issue beyond just HH. Others have learned to let him win, to avoid the issue (which is doing exactly the opposite of what you suggested it would - it brings less realism to their training). But what happens when that new guy doesn't know?

Fine the whole gym is victim to one toxic white belt.

Leave and find a better gym.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but headhunter doesn't run the gym. So it is just about one personality conflict with two guys who can't control their egos.

If he is being horrible to some noob. Then you go over there and crush him next roll.

I think you and I are seeing something different in the descriptions. As HH has described it, it's a known issue that doesn't just affect him.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fine the whole gym is victim to one toxic white belt.

Leave and find a better gym.

So, you now think the right answer is for the good folks to leave? Did you really need to jump to extremes on that?

It seems clear that - assuming the description HH has given isn't overly colored by his own perceptions (which we are all subject to) - this kid is currently a problem in the dojo. The question is how much of a problem, and what's the right way to handle it.

You've swung from "let him be - he's making training more real" to "everyone else should just find a better dojo". There are a lot of options between those two points.

 

[Headhunter]

That's fine. But then it is you who is ego rolling.

Um what?....I'm rolling normally I'm not going hard or soft I don't care if I win or lose

 

[Headhunter]

Well so far it is only headhunter who he rages at and is dangerous to.

Go back and read this thread properly and you'll see that is not the case

 

[drop bear]

Go back and read this thread properly and you'll see that is not the case

You mean where he escaped your triangle using a triangle escape?

But you only rammed your arm in to his throat to get a sub?

Where you saw him start to crank it up but didn't stop or back the pressure off. Maby ask if he is ok?

Where you refuse to change your behavior in any way because obviously you are not responsible for you?

And because I suggested that you can just embrace the situation and gain from it. That has somehow upset you.

Yep his ego.

 

[Headhunter]

You mean where he escaped your triangle using a triangle escape?

But you only rammed your arm in to his throat to get a sub?

Where you saw him start to crank it up but didn't stop or back the pressure off. Maby ask if he is ok?

Where you refuse to change your behavior in any way because obviously you are not responsible for you?

Yep his ego.

Lol I think you've been punched in the face to many times. He did not use a triangle escape he slammed me onto the mat which is illegal in jiu jitsu.

I did not put my arm on his throat I used a collar choke which is a legit technique.

What're you even on about "crank it up" the only cranking when he was yanking on my neck after the time had expired and I'd told him so but he kept doing it...


Did you also miss the bit where I said I had in a arm bar and let it go because he was being stupid and not tapping even when him arm was clicking ?

 

[drop bear]

Lol I think you've been punched in the face to many times. He did not use a triangle escape he slammed me onto the mat which is illegal in jiu jitsu.

I did not put my arm on his throat I used a collar choke which is a legit technique.

What're you even on about "crank it up" the only cranking when he was yanking on my neck after the time had expired and I'd told him so but he kept doing it...


Did you also miss the bit where I said I had in a arm bar and let it go because he was being stupid and not tapping even when him arm was clicking ?

Slamming your legs sideways on to the mat hard.

Is the triangle defense.

 

[jks9199]

Had another roll with this clown today. I knew he was going to go hard. But I wasn't going to up my power because that's how things get stupid but basically I ended up in mount fairly easy and he was doing this weird thing where he was swinging his legs from one side to another must've been trying to throw me off I didn't work at and he gave up his back a few times doing it. I was just happy to control him there and frustrate him and let him wear himself out. Eventually he stuck up his arm so I went for the arm bar which I had I could see him grimacing in pain and I heard his arm clicking and making noises but he wasn't tapping so I just let it go. I'm not gonna break some dumb kids arm for my own ego so I let go and I ended up in guard and the look on his face...he looked furious and at that point I forgot about simply rolling and I was in self defence mode ready to defend myself if he threw a punch and as soon as the round ended up I jumped up and moved back just in case he had any not so smart ideas which I think he was because he got up and walked towards me but luckily the instructor called in everyone to line up to end the class so I just walked away before anything could happen. Again I spoke to the instructor about him because me? I can handle myself if that idiot wants to take a swing at me I can handle him and put him down if I really have to but if he's training with other people who aren't so experienced and he gets like that then he's dangerous so I said exactly what I said here and he said he'll have a word with him and give him a last chance

Why did you train with him again?

He's a hothead, you're not feeling safe training with him because of that... to the point you went to the coach the first time. And yet you train with him again?

Don't pair up with him again. Sounds like he probably should only be rolling with very experienced people who won't trigger his ego but can still push him. And if he runs out of people to roll with, maybe he'll get a hint...

More broadly... you run into people who have trouble keeping their emotions under control. There are different things you can do to help them -- like, if you've got the training and experience, slipping into more of a coach mode. Staying calm yourself can help -- or really push them over the line. Sometimes, you just have to take a break. Once in a while, you have to put a smack down on them (17 year olds sometimes need a physical reset "wakeup"...) -- but that can also push them over the line. Maybe you do give them a quick win - ideally coached to it or discussed after -- because it can get really frustrating if you never win, and you're already frustrated, and now you're more frustrated and you're not winning and you're getting more frustrated.... see the spiral?

 

[jks9199]

A quick follow-up on this. Teens (especially males) aren't generally good at managing their emotions. This is partially because their executive center (the part of the prefrontal cortex that helps override and control emotional responses) is still forming. They literally don't have as much capacity for emotional control. If you want them to step it down a bit, you can't keep letting them run the same loop they're running in their head. You have to alter the input for them, because some of them can't do that yet for themselves.

Especially for males... sometimes a quick, clean "physical reset" is needed. A quick smack/submission that shocks them for a second out of that repeating loop.

 

[jks9199]

You've swung from "let him be - he's making training more real" to "everyone else should just find a better dojo". There are a lot of options between those two points.

You mean like, oh, maybe working with the kid (or others with similar issues) to grow and learn to handle their emotions. Because that doesn't have any application off the mat, right?

The folks at Chiron Training have a concept: training is a place to do emotionally dangerous things in a physically safe environment, and physically dangerous things in a emotionally safe place. It certainly seems to me that this kid may well need some of that... and some training partners and coaches who will help him grow. That may not be Headhunter... and that's not a bad or wrong thing.

 

[JP3]

Some people fight.

If headhunter can handle the guy I don't see an issue.

You kind of want people to be raging from time to time because it changes the dynamic.

I mean people talk realism in training. That is realistic.

 

[JP3]

Some people fight.

If headhunter can handle the guy I don't see an issue.

You kind of want people to be raging from time to time because it changes the dynamic.

I mean people talk realism in training. That is realistic.

When you are trying to learn a skill, it's very difficult to learn that specific skill when either you, or the other person, is going outside the bounds of training that skill.

Basically, the way I took that statement, is that @Headhunter should have broken the kid's arm when he had him locked up and the kid wouldn't tap to acknowledge that he'd been got, just because he wanted "to fight." That can't be what you mean, but it's how I took what you wrote, Drop.

Some people want to fight, sure. They can go train at a place where people fight all the time. They do not need to be in a venue where other people are trying to learn in a safe environment.

Shoot, Judo even has differences in training terms for the difference. Randori vs. Shiai. Training practice vs. competition. In competition, sure thing. Rage on, knock yourself, or the other dude, out. Training... should be training.

 

[JP3]

I can't agree with that if it's an uncontrolled person in the dojo/gym, db. So long as their partner can control them, it's not an issue in free rolling, but people are having to let him win to keep him from raging, so it's not adding realism to their fight training. And what happens when some new guy doesn't know this, does what he can to try to submit the kid, manages to submit him once, and then has this kid trying to actually hurt them?

This isn't the same as having someone push people and go hard, risking some injuries with agreement.

Bang-on correct.

It'ss a philosophical difference in the approach to training. That 17 y/o kid ought to go train at the gym where @Dropbear trains, so they can pull his arms off when he gets out of hand, which apparently is every dang day.

The people who are trying to learn, and not "fight," can train where they want to train.

Will people that come out of Drops gym be able to pull the wings off other people ina scrap? Almost certainly. Will they get injured in training more thant he other people? Again almost certainly. Is that what everyone "wants" to be doing when they're training... definitely not.

Pushing people in training is one thing, and it involves a level of consent. Thinking you're going into a standard training roll, as @Headhunter was doing, then having someone coming at you full throttle and having to defend it... is it a realistic training thing? Maybe. Useful? Debateable. Headhunter is by his own admission, not as skilled as an instructor would be. But, by his description, he's got significant skill if he's able to control the kid without hurting him. By Drop's logic, when the kid originally lit it up, Headhunter should have ended him, which is very contrary to what normal, humane people think is "right."

 

[JR 137]

Hot headed training partners bring up an interesting concept. Which is the difference


And that is the point. There is a big difference between going hard and dealing with a duche bag.

So that duche bag gives you a unique element to your training.

Once or twice, sure. But not day in and day out.

 

[Headhunter]

No matter hiw much of a jerk or an idiot that kid is. I'm not breaking his arm just to prove a point and satisfy my ego. Would he do it to me? Maybe but I'm better than that and I'm not lowering myself to that level and sacrificing my principles just to win a stupid unimportant roll.

I bust this kids arm. First he can't train and second he's a kid he may have exams or courses and assignments but if he's got a busted arm he can't write. I'm not doing that just over a silly training session

 

[drop bear]

When you are trying to learn a skill, it's very difficult to learn that specific skill when either you, or the other person, is going outside the bounds of training that skill.

Basically, the way I took that statement, is that @Headhunter should have broken the kid's arm when he had him locked up and the kid wouldn't tap to acknowledge that he'd been got, just because he wanted "to fight." That can't be what you mean, but it's how I took what you wrote, Drop.

Some people want to fight, sure. They can go train at a place where people fight all the time. They do not need to be in a venue where other people are trying to learn in a safe environment.

Shoot, Judo even has differences in training terms for the difference. Randori vs. Shiai. Training practice vs. competition. In competition, sure thing. Rage on, knock yourself, or the other dude, out. Training... should be training.

That your only option is to break someone's arm who doesn't like you is a big hole in your training.

You need to develop an emotional and physical game designed to deal with aggressive people if you want to transition from a martial artist in to a better martial artist.

Or you can avoid that dynamic and not evolve as a person.

Where you can't deal with that dynamic and also don't have the maturity to avoid that dynamic and wind up whinge posting here about how you are the victim.

 

[drop bear]

Once or twice, sure. But not day in and day out.

It is not a room full of hot heads. It is one guy in an open mat.

This culture shock is very common in BJJ.