Ho Kam Ming wing chun

[wckf92]

For me, LFJ's and Guy's posts about Jut / Jam / Pole etc have helped me to understand where they (WSLVT) are coming from. So for that, their explanations and ideas, whether different or not from my own, are appreciated. Would love to see a WSLVT Pole form video if anyone has one.

 

[LFJ]

Would love to see a WSLVT Pole form video if anyone has one.

Posted in "Pole both sides?" thread.

 

[wckf92]

Posted in "Pole both sides?" thread.

Thanks dude

 

[guy b.]

Jam and jut, as been stated a couple of times, the way we use them can be used offensively, defensively, or in combination. It can be a dual purpose or single use in concert with opposite arm. If others don't it's all good. As far as I am concerned it works and that is a good thing.

Thanks for taking the time to explain how your wing chun works. With the jut in dan chi it obviously works differently to WSL VT, but you have explained why and how you do it and the logic makes sense to me.

 

[guy b.]

Right, I would think it'd be more a waste of time to only give short, vague responses and then post to say your fingers are stuck in your ears now.

Why not address the issues I've raised and taken the time to give my perspective on? Unless you don't disagree with my points, explain how your method works.

Indeed, why not? I have seen people withdraw completely from forum posting before due to arguments, being sick of repeating, personality clashes and so on. But I have never seen someone remain but be unwilling to post anything beyond what appear to be qute opaque or very general statements.

Personally I don't feel I have learned much about HKM wing chun from this thread, which is a real shame given that Joy has very long experience in this type of wing chun and must have a lot of information to share.

 

[geezer]

...It would be great if others could similarly explain the core concepts in their wing chun

IMO it would take too much time to put into words what and why we do dan chi the way we do. Even if I tried, somebody from another lineage would probably misunderstand me. On the other hand it is very easy to demonstrate the differences in person. Still I'll give it a go if I must.

In brief, our dan chi focuses on developing springy energy extending forward along centerline, and sensitivity to any wavering of our opponent's springy energy or deviation from centerline which we can exploit. We do train for lin siu di daa (simultaneous deflect and attack) but of more importance to us is springy energy and learning to let the opponent's attack compress our arm (springy energy) causing our elbow to sink and make our defense ...in short borrowing his force. This is also key to greater efficiency and avoids clashing force.

As for the wrist dropping or arm lowering in the jum sau... this is not a jut-like motion, nor is it withdrawing force. To the contrary, we strive to maintain gentle, springy, forward pressure at all times, but we learn to allow our opponent's strong palm strike to stick and compress our jum sau forcing it down and back like a cam deflecting his attack with his own power. To the observer, it may look like the jum is dropping and withdrawing, but in fact there is always forward pressure and intent.

This dan chi has a very different feeling and training objective than dan chi using a downward jut, or using a forceful, forward wedging jum. Both those solutions may be functional, but train different attributes.

Finally, to take a broader view, I should say that LFJ has a point when he says that WSL VT is, to a degree, a different system. Similarly, my old sifu claimed his "WT" was a different system. HKM WC is also a distinct system, etc. But LFJ is mistaken when he asserts that all other branches are necessarily lacking in consistency, coherency, and are not integrated systems because they do not use the same techniques WSL VT uses. That's like saying an Audi isn't a functional car because it doesn't use Mercedes parts. Each is still integrated and functional.

 

[geezer]

Right, I would think it'd be more a waste of time to only give short, vague responses and then post to say your fingers are stuck in your ears now.

Fortune cookie say: Better to have your fingers stuck in your ears than to have your head stuck up your...

OK, really sorry about that. Just having fun. ...I mean really, let's not get toooo serious around here guys!

 

[Vajramusti]

The point is not whether it's in a form or not. It's that if the idea of the jam elbow is missing from SNT, it pretty well guarantees it's missing in DCS, SCS, and the entire fighting strategy of the system. That's even if there is a jam-sau action but with a different interpretation, as long as it's missing the elbow idea of lin-siu-daai-da.

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Both jam and jut are in the slt that I do. BTW I dont speak for my sifu or sigung..They do that in their own teaching.
I dont pull back my elbows either in jam of jut. The elbows SINK in slightly different directions because the jam and jut uses
different sides of the kiu.. Dahn chi sau cycle uses 3 functions- neutral, defense and attack.
In a real situation an alert person can use the opponent's motion to quickly show him how to close a line or open one.
One can strike in combined attack.defense with jam or jut.In some circumstances the jut elbow has a better path to the target.

Of course showing is better than talk.

 

[dudewingchun]

Is jam sau not importantant in CSL wing chun?

It is. Both jam and gan are present in siu nim tao

 

[guy b.]

It is. Both jam and gan are present in siu nim tao

Don't you find it important if jam or jut in dan chi?

 

[guy b.]

-----------------------------------------
Both jam and jut are in the slt that I do. BTW I dont speak for my sifu or sigung..They do that in their own teaching.
I dont pull back my elbows either in jam of jut. The elbows SINK in slightly different directions because the jam and jut uses
different sides of the kiu.. Dahn chi sau cycle uses 3 functions- neutral, defense and attack.
In a real situation an alert person can use the opponent's motion to quickly show him how to close a line or open one.
One can strike in combined attack.defense with jam or jut.In some circumstances the jut elbow has a better path to the target.

Of course showing is better than talk.

Talk is very useful when showing isn't possible. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

I have seen jut done with no elbow before and seems like the most common way of doing it, although I think elbow involvement is better. Can you describe how you strike with your jut?

Also can you describe the jam elbow that you use and its function?

 

[dudewingchun]

Don't you find it important if jam or jut in dan chi?

Well the depth of my chi sao knowledge comes from my old teacher. And we just did jum in dan chi sao. Im not 100% sure about CSL theory about Dan Chi sao.. Iv only just finished siu nim tao and just started chi sao stuff in CSL. We jum with 80% elbow 20% wrist power im pretty sure.

 

[guy b.]

IMO it would take too much time to put into words what and why we do dan chi the way we do. Even if I tried, somebody from another lineage would probably misunderstand me. On the other hand it is very easy to demonstrate the differences in person. Still I'll give it a go if I must.

In brief, our dan chi focuses on developing springy energy extending forward along centerline, and sensitivity to any wavering of our opponent's springy energy or deviation from centerline which we can exploit. We do train for lin siu di daa (simultaneous deflect and attack) but of more importance to us is springy energy and learning to let the opponent's attack compress our arm (springy energy) causing our elbow to sink and make our defense ...in short borrowing his force. This is also key to greater efficiency and avoids clashing force.

So if I am correct you are using dan chi to train contact reflexes which are determined by the motion of your attacker, in this case to block his attack with springy energy?

As for the wrist dropping or arm lowering in the jum sau... this is not a jut-like motion, nor is it withdrawing force. To the contrary, we strive to maintain gentle, springy, forward pressure at all times, but we learn to allow our opponent's strong palm strike to stick and compress our jum sau forcing it down and back like a cam deflecting his attack with his own power. To the observer, it may look like the jum is dropping and withdrawing, but in fact there is always forward pressure and intent.

This dan chi has a very different feeling and training objective than dan chi using a downward jut, or using a forceful, forward wedging jum. Both those solutions may be functional, but train different attributes.

Thanks very much for description

Finally, to take a broader view, I should say that LFJ has a point when he says that WSL VT is, to a degree, a different system. Similarly, my old sifu claimed his "WT" was a different system. HKM WC is also a distinct system, etc. But LFJ is mistaken when he asserts that all other branches are necessarily lacking in consistency, coherency, and are not integrated systems because they do not use the same techniques WSL VT uses. That's like saying an Audi isn't a functional car because it doesn't use Mercedes parts. Each is still integrated and functional.

I think the main reason for any misunderstanding is that many versions of wing chun are extremely secretive about what they do and why. WSL VT is generally quite open in this respect. For this reason WSL VT people write a lot of descriptive stuff. When they don't get replies then I guess it is easy to assume that consistency or coherence is lacking. This may be untrue but is understandable. Discussion aids understanding.

 

[LFJ]

One can strike in combined attack.defense with jam or jut.In some circumstances the jut elbow has a better path to the target.

You mean with the aid of a second hand? If so, although it's simultaneous attack and defense, it is still two hands against one. Something we try to avoid as an opening response/ first action.

For us, jam elbow trains the punch. It is a direct path to the target and would be a first action. If your jam-sau doesn't work like this, then I would say what is in your SNT is not jam-sau as I know it.

Jat sharply jerks slightly down and back from an extended position to open the line for a simultaneous strike from the other arm. That would be a secondary action; say if the first punch was interrupted, then jat and punch to continue the flow of attack. It's a helping action, so we don't do it as a first response in DCS.

 

[Vajramusti]

Right, I would think it'd be more a waste of time to only give short, vague responses and then post to say your fingers are stuck in your ears now.

Why not address the issues I've raised and taken the time to give my perspective on? Unless you don't disagree with my points, explain how your method works.

You mean with the aid of a second hand? If so, although it's simultaneous attack and defense, it is still two hands against one. Something we try to avoid as an opening response/ first action.

For us, jam elbow trains the punch. It is a direct path to the target and would be a first action. If your jam-sau doesn't work like this, then I would say what is in your SNT is not jam-sau as I know it.

Jat sharply jerks slightly down and back from an extended position to open the line for a simultaneous strike from the other arm. That would be a secondary action; say if the first punch was interrupted, then jat and punch to continue the flow of attack. It's a helping action, so we don't do it as a first response in DCS.

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For us? Are you speaking for WSL?If so I am glad that I don't do your version of wing chun We have different paths- ok by me.Jut sao can be done with one hand or accompany another hand. But I don't think that WSL was a dogmatic as you make him out to be

 

[Danny T]

Jat sharply jerks slightly down and back from an extended position to open the line for a simultaneous strike from the other arm.

From my training the wrist is simply abducted. There is no back movement and the elbow is either maintained or pressed forward by the structure of the body. Intent is forward.

 

[LFJ]

For us? Are you speaking for WSL?If so I am glad that I don't do your version of wing chun We have different paths- ok by me.Jut sao can be done with one hand or accompany another hand. But I don't think that WSL was a dogmatic as you make him out to be

Would WSL be an "us"? I'm making it clear that I'm speaking from a perspective of WSLVT, obviously, as opposed to HKMWC or another lineage.

Can you be clear and point out where you think I'm making WSL out to be "dogmatic"? I get the feeling you're just being snide as a defense mechanism, because you haven't actually addressed how the concerns I've raised would be wrong or misplaced. Your attitude suggests to me you don't have much of anything in response.

 

[LFJ]

In brief, our dan chi focuses on developing springy energy extending forward along centerline, and sensitivity to any wavering of our opponent's springy energy or deviation from centerline which we can exploit.

Then we differ greatly right from setup. At the DCS stage, a beginner has not yet learned to control their own actions against outside pressure. So it would be much too early to start trying to control an opponent. In our DCS, there is no force exchange yet, nor are there opponents. We only use each other's arms for reference to learn elbow control for displacement coming to and from center; expansion (taan), contraction (jam), and rotation (bong), then recovery to neutral elbows and restart.

Once elbow control is understood and running fine in DCS, then pun-sau is commenced and we begin to exchange forces between opposing elbows, taan vs jam, punch vs punch to understand line of force. Then follows lat-sau-jik-chung drills, stepping and angling, etc.. All still in mutual development, helping each other check and make the right lines. To this point it's all about development for the individual.

Before one has been through the stages to systematically develop coordination, elbow control, understanding of lines, force exchange, etc., I don't see how or why one would be trying to borrow an opponent's force and looking to exploit them, already being confrontational in DCS.

But LFJ is mistaken when he asserts that all other branches are necessarily lacking in consistency, coherency, and are not integrated systems because they do not use the same techniques WSL VT uses. That's like saying an Audi isn't a functional car because it doesn't use Mercedes parts. Each is still integrated and functional.

It's not so much about techniques. The jam elbow I'm talking about contains a ton of information about the entire fighting strategy of the system. If that goes missing, then there is no longer a coherent step by step development. Instead, you jump straight to trying to exploit each other at the beginner stage of DCS. In my view, that's like trying to spin off in a shell of a Mercedes without even having the drivetrain assembled yet. Takes a lot of imagination!

 

[Vajramusti]

Would WSL be an "us"? I'm making it clear that I'm speaking from a perspective of WSLVT, obviously, as opposed to HKMWC or another lineage.

Can you be clear and point out where you think I'm making WSL out to be "dogmatic"? I get the feeling you're just being snide as a defense mechanism, because you haven't actually addressed how the concerns I've raised would be wrong or misplaced. Your attitude suggests to me you don't have much of anything in response.

 

[Vajramusti]

I don't think WSL was dogmatic-you are in some of your posts You don't have to agree with me- but your dogmatism gets in the way of understanding what I sad.You can do whatever you want-.
In dahn chi sao -jut from fuk can be very fluid. Dan chi sao trains one hand at a time... but it leads to two handed chi sane can use one or two hands depending on context.
Snide? Defense mechanisms? my attitude? don't have much of anything..?
You can make all these personal inferences from posts on jam and jut? Amazing!!