Ho Kam Ming wing chun

[LFJ]

@geezer

As I have observed in other lineages, what they call jam-sau is an action whereby the forearm is used to sink down on the opponent's arm as a block. Rather than the elbow coming in and forward, it is the distal end of the forearm that does the job. Often the wrist drops low (as in LT's SNT after laan-sau) because the mind is more in the distal than proximal end of the forearm.

It has nothing to do with punching. Even when they have something they call jam-sau, it is the idea of jam elbow for punch training that is missing in other lineages. This means each stage of development that should be using this idea, instead has it replaced with techniques like jat-sau, and on the opposite end, taan-sau gets treated as a fighting technique as well. This is because the interaction between taan and jam elbows is missing! As a result, the entire system loses its coherence and becomes about techniques.

 

[Danny T]

How is your jam-sau done and what is it supposed to accomplish? Why jat in DCS?

Jam intercepts and cuts his vector while maintain the line or as it continues forward into a strike. Jut redirects the opponents arm downward and away from his body causing a change in his center of gravity as it opens the line to his middle gate. In DCS it is also used to help teach the attacker to release the tension in his arm as it is been redirected so it can't be used against him. One cuts across the vector the other causes the body to come forward two different affects.

 

[guy b.]

Jam intercepts and cuts his vector while maintain the line or as it continues forward into a strike. Jut redirects the opponents arm downward and away from his body causing a change in his center of gravity as it opens the line to his middle gate. In DCS it is also used to help teach the attacker to release the tension in his arm as it is been redirected so it can't be used against him. One cuts across the vector the other causes the body to come forward two different affects.

Danny T, I don't understand why you would jut the palm in dan chi? Can you explain what this is training?

 

[guy b.]

I find it sounds ...narrow minded to describe other lineages approaches in terms of "right" and "wrong" as LFJ did in post #17. In the WC I trained, we also did dan-chi differently than what is shown in those clips, and we always use a jum sau, not a jut sau. Our method is directed at training very specific attributes. The method shown in those videos (and that I've experienced crossing bridges with a student of the HKM - A.Fong lineage) seems to train different attributes.

It would be great if everyone could get over whatever annoyance they feel about WSL people telling them what is right and wrong. Obviously any such talk is entirely from the perspective of WSL VT! Which is the only perspective you have when you practice WSL VT.

The particular WSL VT people that caused you problems on the KFM forum are not here at the moment. I would like it if you would treat me as me rather than as an extension of K Gledhill or G Handbury. I am me, not them.

It would be so much more productive if, instead of perceiving every WSL VT idea presented as a direct attack, people could instead use it as an opportunity to talk about what they do differently and why. This is the discussion that is worth having and that is interesting. If we avoid doing this then why bother to have a wing chun forum at all?

I don't understand why Danny T juts in dan chi sau, so I have asked him. I don't bear him any ill will for his jut in dan chi sau but I would like to understand his reason for doing it, what it is aimed at training, what he thinks of jam vs jut, and so on.

I only wish that others would respond in a similar way to such questions. Please do not feel defensive, questioning is motivated by curiosity not a desire to attack. Obviously everyone here is training a version of wing chun that they feel is the best available to them at the present time. LFJ has presented a pretty clear picture of why WSL VT uses a jam not a jut. It isn't secret knowledge and it isn't aimed at making anyone else look stupid. It just is what it is. If you do it differently or the same then please, at least consider talking about it and the thinking behind it. Otherwise why are we here?

"Different" does not equal "wrong" in my judgement. Now of course, each of us chooses what we train based on our estimation of what we think works the best for us (among other things). But that doesn't make everyone else wrong!

Different can of course be wrong from our own perspective. But it is only from our own perspective. If you are happy doing whatever you are doing then what's the problem if I think it is wrong? Why be so terrified of disagreement? Why would you care if LFJ sounds a bit narrow minded to you (sounds like narrow minded = being sure you are right)- I'm sure pretty much all of us are sure we are right or we would be in the process of changing to something else! it's just a forum for exploring ideas. Please help us explore them.

 

[guy b.]

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Understandable!

As I understand it you are the only HKM person here. Please consider discussing the deail of your wing chun, perhaps in relation to the jam/jut question, or perhaps in another way. Not participating doesn't accomplish anything for you, me or anyone else that is here on this forum. I bear you no ill will and I am only motivated by a desire to understand HKM wing chun, which is a line I have not had the chance to experience before.

 

[LFJ]

LFJ has presented a pretty clear picture of why WSL VT uses a jam not a jut.

To further explain why a jat-sau should not be used in DCS;

Taan and fuk are neutral elbows, pre-striking positions. Nothing has happened yet. If you jat the attack, your elbow will be coming back from the "fixed position" as you drop your wrist. This is creating an idea of waiting, feeling, and blocking rather than attacking the attack, and would be hand chasing.

Instead, jam elbow comes in and then forward to punch. Later this becomes one smooth punching action with the principle of lin-siu-daai-da, defending with the elbow as we strike– not bringing the elbow back first. This also doesn't rely on pre-contact to work. We must always keep the free-fighting end goal in mind, and not get stuck with sticking ideas. DCS teaches elbow control, not sticking.

Using jat from fuk-sau in DCS would be premature. Jat-sau comes in later as a means to clear the line and continue an interrupted attack. That is, we punch, it gets interrupted, we jat from the elbow down and back to open the line for continued attack. In SNT, we first extend a double taan in order to jat back from an extended and interrupted position. It would be better to jat the bong-sau that has interrupted our punch so that we may continue, rather than to jat an opening attack from a neutral position.

For these reasons, using jat from fuk-sau in DCS would be violating multiple VT principles and creating bad habits at an early stage in development.

 

[Vajramusti]

I may be a "mentor" ...but I'm not a slave of this chit-chat site!

@geezer

As I have observed in other lineages, what they call jam-sau is an action whereby the forearm is used to sink down on the opponent's arm as a block. Rather than the elbow coming in and forward, it is the distal end of the forearm that does the job. Often the wrist drops low (as in LT's SNT after laan-sau) because the mind is more in the distal than proximal end of the forearm.

It has nothing to do with punching. Even when they have something they call jam-sau, it is the idea of jam elbow for punch training that is missing in other lineages. This means each stage of development that should be using this idea, instead has it replaced with techniques like jat-sau, and on the opposite end, taan-sau gets treated as a fighting technique as well. This is because the interaction between taan and jam elbows is missing! As a result, the entire system loses its coherence and becomes about techniques.

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The elbow plays a crucial role in my jam

BTW-Master Ho is my sigung.Master Fong is my sifu.

 

[KPM]

It would be great if everyone could get over whatever annoyance they feel about WSL people telling them what is right and wrong. Obviously any such talk is entirely from the perspective of WSL VT! Which is the only perspective you have when you practice WSL VT.

The particular WSL VT people that caused you problems on the KFM forum are not here at the moment. I would like it if you would treat me as me rather than as an extension of K Gledhill or G Handbury. I am me, not them.

It would be so much more productive if, instead of perceiving every WSL VT idea presented as a direct attack, people could instead use it as an opportunity to talk about what they do differently and why. This is the discussion that is worth having and that is interesting. If we avoid doing this then why bother to have a wing chun forum at all?

.

There is an interesting concept called "tact." Please look it up.

 

[Danny T]

Danny T, I don't understand why you would jut the palm in dan chi? Can you explain what this is training?

Jut the palm?
Jut the pressure... And as I stated already; "Jut redirects the opponents arm downward and away from his body causing a change in his center of gravity as it opens the line to his middle gate."
In Jut the elbow doesn't come back, elbow maintains as the wrist drops If the attacker doesn't let go of the tension in his arm on the punch his body will be drawn forward and off balance as well as clearing the line. His body is trapped through his arm. In the chi sao game if he releases the tension the arm is simply redirected with no loss of body positioning and can respond to the following punch attack by the forward screwing action of the bong or tan depending on the pressure presented by the punch.

 

[guy b.]

Please see response below

 

[guy b.]

Jut the palm?
Jut the pressure... And as I stated already; "Jut redirects the opponents arm downward and away from his body causing a change in his center of gravity as it opens the line to his middle gate."
In Jut the elbow doesn't come back, elbow maintains as the wrist drops If the attacker doesn't let go of the tension in his arm on the punch his body will be drawn forward and off balance as well as clearing the line. His body is trapped through his arm. In the chi sao game if he releases the tension the arm is simply redirected with no loss of body positioning and can respond to the following punch attack by the forward screwing action of the bong or tan depending on the pressure presented by the punch.

Ok, what are you aiming to develop with the dan chi sau drill when you jut?

How would you use jut when not drilling? I would tend to use when my arm encounters an obstacle in attack. Jut then clears the way allowing continuance of attack. From what you say it sounds as if you tend to use it as a block?

 

[guy b.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The elbow plays a crucial role in my jam

BTW-Master Ho is my sigung.Master Fong is my sifu.

Can you elaborate on this please?

 

[guy b.]

There is an interesting concept called "tact." Please look it up.

If you are still angry and feeling sensitive then this post is particularly directed towards you.

 

[LFJ]

In Jut the elbow doesn't come back, elbow maintains as the wrist drops

The question is why jat in response to an opening attack from a neutral position? Are you assuming pre-contact in such a position? If you try to jat like this to an opening action and miss? Your wrist drops and leaves a gap for you to be hit. This is why we learn elbow control; because it has natural limits and can't overshoot or cross center like the hand can. That's a problem with actions led by the wrist.

In the chi sao game if he releases the tension the arm is simply redirected with no loss of body positioning and can respond to the following punch attack

And if that happens in free fighting, you've dropped your wrist out of a punch-ready position taking your arm momentarily out of commission just as much as the opponent's arm while not having accomplished anything. Should have been attacking.

If we use the jam elbow to strike forward, we don't lose position. The punch either lands or it gets interrupted, but we have ways to handle that. That's where jat may come in, after the strike has already been extended and interrupted. We are able to respond immediately without thought to sustain our flow of attack because we were attacking to start with, not trying to control arms as an opening response. Attack attack attack!

 

[Danny T]

Ok, what are you aiming to develop with the dan chi sau drill when you jut?

How would you use jut when not drilling? I would tend to use when my arm encounters an obstacle in attack. Jut then clears the way allowing continuance of attack. From what you say it sounds as if you tend to use it as a block?

In DCS it is a response to the opponent's movement Jut intercepts the movement and yes clears the way through the displacement of the opponent's arm (redirected as previously stated above) as well as bringing the opponent into to my attack. It is a multi-affect counter-attacking move and like most all actions, is mostly offensive.

 

[Danny T]

The question is why jat in response to an opening attack from a neutral position? Are you assuming pre-contact in such a position? If you try to jat like this to an opening action and miss? Your wrist drops and leaves a gap for you to be hit. This is why we learn elbow control; because it has natural limits and can't overshoot or cross center like the hand can. That's a problem with actions led by the wrist.

I was answering your question in #40 that was; “Why jat in DCS?”
Where is the opening attack in DCS? Is the opening a jut or a jam or is the opponent attacking or both? And in DSC we are in contact. It seems from your questions you doing DCS differently from what we do? Or, maybe you are attempt to lead through the questions to something?

And if that happens in free fighting, you've dropped your wrist out of a punch-ready position taking your arm momentarily out of commission just as much as the opponent's arm while not having accomplished anything. Should have been attacking.

If we use the jam elbow to strike forward, we don't lose position. The punch either lands or it gets interrupted, but we have ways to handle that. That's where jat may come in, after the strike has already been extended and interrupted. We are able to respond immediately without thought to sustain our flow of attack because we were attacking to start with, not trying to control arms as an opening response. Attack attack attack!

Ok.
Why are you assuming we don't? Why are you assuming we lead off attempting to snap a jut on an attackers punch? Where are you getting these assumptions?

 

[KPM]

If you are still angry and feeling sensitive then this post is particularly directed towards you.

I'm not the whining, demanding that people respond to my questions, or acting clueless when he discovers that people don't want to actually discuss things with you. ;-)

 

[LFJ]

Where is the opening attack in DCS?

Fuk-sau and taan-sau are neutral positions in DCS. The vertical palm strike is the opening attack. Your response to the opening attack from a neutral position is to drop your wrist on it, rather than to attack back.

Why are you assuming we lead off attempting to snap a jut on an attackers punch? Where are you getting these assumptions?

How does your DCS relate to free fighting then? You are assuming pre-contact from a neutral position in free fighting? I don't understand what exactly you're trying to develop by doing jat-sau from this position. I don't see the reason to jat. Why not attack directly?

 

[Danny T]

Fuk-sau and taan-sau are neutral positions in DCS. The vertical palm strike is the opening attack. Your response to the opening attack from a neutral position is to drop your wrist on it, rather than to attack back.

Interesting.
Can you not attack from your Fuk? Can't jut cut his bong motion?

How does your DCS relate to free fighting then? You are assuming pre-contact from a neutral position in free fighting? I don't understand what exactly you're trying to develop by doing jat-sau from this position. I don't see the reason to jat. Why not attack directly?

No.
What happens in free fighting you attack, he attacks and he has a better and stronger position? You just continue your attack anyway?

Contact happens because of intercepting or because of the attack.
Sometimes you simple miss the timing on the attack and can only defend. We don't want that to happen but it does. There is the theory, the plan, and the reality. We train both in DCS and SCS. We train attack, defensive attacking, counter-attacking. Never just attack with disregard for what if. The what if is programmed through the drills and chi sao practice. The other person is not going to just attempt to defend or stand there taking your attack, they will be attacking also. But you know that so all your training is simply to attack, attack, attack at all cost? No I'm certain you also train and practice the skills to break off an attack or to adjust your positioning and then continue to attack or even god forbid yield due to the other having or being in superior position. Either way Jam is a good move as well is Jut, play with it. If you don't like it or don't feel it is for you - Ok. It's all good.

 

[guy b.]

I'm not the whining, demanding that people respond to my questions, or acting clueless when he discovers that people don't want to actually discuss things with you. ;-)

edited; pointless.