Ho Kam Ming wing chun

[LFJ]

There are some differences introduced by WSL in Dan Chi Sao such as larger distance and higher aim compared to what I see with your videos that you linked.

I'm quite sure the only change he made was extending the distance. The other points were just bits of instruction on how the drill should have always been done. Aiming low with the vertical palm strike would have always been a mistake.

To be honest the differences between the two seem so great to me that neither could be considered the same drills.

I agree, but I also think the same thing about the entire systems! As I said, without jam-sau the whole system falls apart. Now, maybe others have picked up the pieces and made something else from it and have their reasoning, but it no longer effectively functions in the same way. A completely different type of fighter is developed.

As for jam sao I agree it is removed from SLT from all but WSLVT, YM decided this. WSL brought it back to his own lineage if I dont missunderstand history completely.

I think what happened was that YM suggested using the gaang-sau instead of the jam-sau in the fight situation WSL found himself in, but WSL hadn't learned it yet because it was in the dummy and BJ form. So, YM decided to bring it into SNT to be learned earlier. Others took it upon themselves to replace the jam-sau which had failed, with the "new" technique YM said would have worked, apparently for lack of foresight. They would have to not have understood the system yet and looked at it as just a collection of techniques. So they completely switched one for another based on someone else's fighting experience and not understanding YM's response. Taking jam-sau out would kill the entire system from SNT onward. It is absolutely essential at every stage.

The problem I see with some teachers (not lineage specific) is that they think it better to start out slow by first doing SLT before moving on to the next form. By the time the student gets to touch the dummy and footwork he has already become too stiff in his ways. This is my opinion only.

Are you saying that too much time is spent on SNT before moving on? I agree. It shouldn't take 1 year or more.

But do not be so quick to judge. We cant know that jam sao is removed from these lineages by watching YouTube.

If the section is missing from their SNT, they drop the wrist in DCS, and move directly backward connected at the wrists in SM/TM drills, then it has been removed. They may have another action which they call jam-sau and use it differently, but the jam elbow opposite of taan elbow is gone.

 

[Vajramusti]

What did I say in that other thread? Part of his M.O..

Now, regarding HKM WC, it appears jam-sau has also suffered the same fate in their lineage. It has completely disappeared.

The dichotomy between taan elbow and jam elbow is largely what the system makes use of for development of elbow behaviors in free fighting. As most of us know, gaang-sau was added to SNT following one of WSL's fights where jam-sau had failed and YM deciding that it should be introduced sooner than the dummy or Biu-ji form. However, while WSL kept the important jam-sau section, his contemporaries replaced it with the new gaang-sau section.

As a result, jam-sau seems to have disappeared entirely from their thinking, and this means that taan-sau no longer has an opposing jam-sau to work with, which has led to various application ideas for the taan-sau shape which have nothing to do with the original function in training. Their focus has shifted away from the elbow, forward to the wrist, and the wrist is now used as they stick, feel, and redirect with one hand and strike with the other. This fundamentally changes the way the system works, removing simultaneous attack and defense functions in a single limb, fully castrating the "cut the way" strategy, and ultimately resulting in a far less efficient method.

This is a major difference between WSL's VT and that of his contemporaries, and it seems HKM lineage is no exception.

Two videos below show Lui Ming Fai demonstrating daan-chi-sau, and we can see how his elbow pops out while his wrist drops to the level of the navel to redirect the incoming strike. In WSLVT, the jam elbow comes in and forward to a punching position with hip connection and without dropping the wrist, then punches. It's broken up first to teach the elbow. Later, it turns into a single action. Taan and jam elbows are further developed in pun-sau too, but this should be the first stage of their interaction... and yet it's missing.
Right side:

Left side:

In the last video, we can see how not only in their SNT form is the jam-sau section missing, but throughout the form there is no jam elbow at all. A result of this is then seen in their seung-ma / teui-ma drill where they are not using the jam elbow because their focus is on their wrists. This means they aren't making the proper angle and their footwork is wrong, just moving back in a straight line.

With no jam-sau, the entire system falls apart! Nothing fits together in coherent stages for development. Lonely taan-sau, left to imagination, gets treated as a fighting technique. And the entire strategy is lost and replaced with sticky wrists.

This is one simple way to know if a system is broken in a YM lineage. Check if they are missing jam-sau from the very beginning! If so, it pretty well guarantees they are going to have sticky wrists and fight with taan-sau.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. You obviously dont know HKM wing chun and are generalizing subjectively. Jam sao is very alive and well in Ho Kam Ming wing chun.
But dont let me stop you from your orations,

 

[LFJ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. You obviously dont know HKM wing chun and are generalizing subjectively. Jam sao is very alive and well in Ho Kam Ming wing chun.
But dont let me stop you from your orations,

As I said in my last post, what you call jam-sau is probably something quite different, where you are supposed to drop your wrist and ride the opponent's arm back to nullify it, as Lui Ming Fai did. If I'm wrong, do you mind explaining how it's supposed to work in HKM WC? At any rate, it does appear to be absent in the SNT that was presented.

 

[guy b.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. You obviously dont know HKM wing chun and are generalizing subjectively. Jam sao is very alive and well in Ho Kam Ming wing chun.
But dont let me stop you from your orations,

Please can you elaborate a bit about the HKM system and how it functions? Obviously it is different to WSL VT but this doesn't mean it doesn't work. However in order to understand it someone that knows about it will need to describe it, since it is not available to many people on this forum.

I can see why responses from LFJ might be a bit annoying, but surely they should be easily answered in terms of the HKM system?

 

[guy b.]

As I said in my last post, what you call jam-sau is probably something quite different, where you are supposed to drop your wrist and ride the opponent's arm back to nullify it, as Lui Ming Fai did. If I'm wrong, do you mind explaining how it's supposed to work in HKM WC? At any rate, it does appear to be absent in the SNT that was presented.

I guess it would be taught at a later point in the system in HKM wing chun? Hearing how this works from a HKM person would be useful in understanding it.

 

[geezer]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. You obviously dont know HKM wing chun and are generalizing subjectively. Jam sao is very alive and well in Ho Kam Ming wing chun.
But dont let me stop you from your orations,

I have to agree with Joy completely here.

I've only had the briefest exposure to the HKW - Augustine Fong lineage through some people in the Phoenix area, but I can affirm that they use jum sau quite effectively, although differently than what I practice. I train WC deriving from the LT branch, and we use a elbow heavy jum sau in SNY and Dan Chi, Poon sau, Lat Sau drills, sparring and so on. It is a core technique. For Guy and LFJ to go on and on in this back and forth conversation about how nobody but WSL has jum sau in their SNT, etc. is like watching the blind leading the blind.

 

[Vajramusti]

I guess it would be taught at a later point in the system in HKM wing chun? Hearing how this works from a HKM person would be useful in understanding it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
You can do your version of wsl wing chun, I donr but I dont care to criticize it. I dont know LFJ, I doubt that he had sustained teaching by WSL. He does not know HKM wing chun for sure,,,,takes things.out of context in videos.

FYI- HKM started in wing chun a little later than WSL but he was consitent and regular and he did more chi sao with Ip Man than anyone. Of course he knew the jam sao and its uses well. Now, in chi sao including dan chi sao-proper timing and elbow adjustments and structure are important. For controlling strike from fok you can do several things.
You can jam. or jut .but jut creates an easier path to target.

I was busy teaching and I am not a slave of a chit chat site.

 

[geezer]

...I am not a slave of a chit chat site.

Best comment I've read in a long time!

 

[Phobius]

Besides, videos show basic dan chi sao drill, those are done with jut sao. LFJ must be confusing jut and jam.

 

[Phobius]

Are you saying that too much time is spent on SNT before moving on? I agree. It shouldn't take 1 year or more.

Yes, that is my opinion. Not about starting with SNT but rather that some teachers think it best to keep a student doing it for far too long before moving on. After all the true understanding of the idea comes first later when other forms are more clear.

 

[guy b.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
You can do your version of wsl wing chun, I donr but I dont care to criticize it. I dont know LFJ, I doubt that he had sustained teaching by WSL. He does not know HKM wing chun for sure,,,,takes things.out of context in videos.

FYI- HKM started in wing chun a little later than WSL but he was consitent and regular and he did more chi sao with Ip Man than anyone. Of course he knew the jam sao and its uses well. Now, in chi sao including dan chi sao-proper timing and elbow adjustments and structure are important. For controlling strike from fok you can do several things.
You can jam. or jut .but jut creates an easier path to target.

I was busy teaching and I am not a slave of a chit chat site.

Please conider further explaining you wing chun. I have no desire to attack you, merely interested to understand it

 

[guy b.]

Best comment I've read in a long time!

Aren't you some kind of moderator here? If so why so biased?

 

[Danny T]

In the Jiu Wan lineage we have jam sao and in don chi sao one can jam or one can jut.

 

[Eric_H]

As I said, without jam-sau the whole system falls apart

That's one magical technique.

 

[Danny T]

That's one magical technique.

It's Wing Chun - They are All Magical!!

 

[Vajramusti]

In the Jiu Wan lineage we have jam sao and in don chi sao one can jam or one can jut.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Understandable!

 

[geezer]

Aren't you some kind of moderator here? If so why so biased?

I may be a "mentor" ...but I'm not a slave of this chit-chat site!

 

[geezer]

I find it sounds ...narrow minded to describe other lineages approaches in terms of "right" and "wrong" as LFJ did in post #17. In the WC I trained, we also did dan-chi differently than what is shown in those clips, and we always use a jum sau, not a jut sau. Our method is directed at training very specific attributes. The method shown in those videos (and that I've experienced crossing bridges with a student of the HKM - A.Fong lineage) seems to train different attributes.

"Different" does not equal "wrong" in my judgement. Now of course, each of us chooses what we train based on our estimation of what we think works the best for us (among other things). But that doesn't make everyone else wrong!

Now check this out: A young girl performing the Leung Ting lineage SNT from the early 80's. Jum sau is present in two sections. Notice the double jum-sau after the double lan-sau movement at 1:18, and then the single jum-sau movement after the tan-sau at 1:39 and on the other side at 1:49.

Now a look at Lt's WT version of dan-chi: You will notice that the basic dan-chi beginning at 12:52 is a very linear exercise that does not move up and down to the degree that you see in the examples previously posted by LFJ of the HKM lineage.

BTW, like LFJ, LT was also quick to judge other WC branches as wrong (see the guys in the "I'm Wrong" T-shirts in the clip at around 13:48?). He was also fond of the words stupid and idiotic to describe other branches. Is it any wonder that he is so beloved in the WC community? A shame, because he did have a very interesting perspective on WC, one that I feel has importance. Unfortunately, many people find it hard to look beyond his personality and business practices to see these contributions.

 

[KPM]

Good points Steve. And just to remind people of a little "history".....Leung Ting claims to be the last "closed door" student of Ip Man before Ip Man died. As far as who Ip Man may have "given a sh1t about"....Leung Ting has photos of Ip Man training him on the dummy, photos of Ip Man attending his wedding, photos of Ip Man attending a demonstration put on by Leung Ting's students, and many other photos. In fact, many of the photos of Ip Man that have circulating about were likely from Leung Ting's collection. The 8mm footage of Ip Man going through the forms not long before his death I believe are from Leung Ting's collection. Just a little historical footnote. Carry on. ;-)

 

[LFJ]

FYI- HKM started in wing chun a little later than WSL but he was consitent and regular and he did more chi sao with Ip Man than anyone. Of course he knew the jam sao and its uses well.

Not sure how you're going to substantiate that claim, but whatever...
What are the uses of jam-sau in this lineage then?

Now, in chi sao including dan chi sao-proper timing and elbow adjustments and structure are important. For controlling strike from fok you can do several things.
You can jam. or jut .but jut creates an easier path to target.

So, in DCS you're trying to control their strike?

For us, we're not thinking about opponents yet. We are just using each other's arms to develop our own elbow behavior. It's an abstract drill, coming from SNT, preparing for pun-sau and other drills to systematically develop this idea.

Jat is not an opening action to me, and jat and then punch is two steps. Not an easier path to target than jam, which to me describes the elbow of a direct punch. The idea is to be able to maintain striking while protecting ourselves with the elbow. It is the most efficient way.

In the Jiu Wan lineage we have jam sao and in don chi sao one can jam or one can jut.

How is your jam-sau done and what is it supposed to accomplish? Why jat in DCS?