History of Islamic Hostility and an Analysis of Current Threat Potential

[Twin Fist]

all of that horse **** doesnt change the result

right now, who is more likely to blow something up?

RIGHT NOW, who is the bigger threat

if you cant answer that simple question without going into ancient history, if is only because you dont want to.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

right now, who is more likely to blow something up?

Right now? Here? Nationwide? Worldwide?

ok I'll play.

Time: Sometime this week.

Where:
Here, which to me is WNY.
Probably a black guy. Based on police reports and trends.

State wide? (meaning NY)
"Christian Extremist" to 'let gods wrath loose' on us 'sinful' NYers for 'letting tose fags marry, violating the sanctity of the institution' and all that crap.

You mean by you?
I'd go with either some latino gang bangers, or your local FD making a fire break.

Nationwide?
Christian extremists, various ethnic gangs, and maybe someone who in some way shape or form is connected to Islam.

But John, you can tune all that out, and just see this:

blahblahblahblah muslims.

Because that's what you want to see.

But hey. We are 6 months into 2011.
How many violent acts have occurred in the United States, between Jan 1 and today?
How many involved Muslims?
How many involved non-Muslims?

You know this. You keep saying how there is a clear immediate threat.
So....
Give. Me. The. Damn. Numbers.

3 bits of data. You must have them. You have to have them.
Otherwise....you're just guessing and making **** up.


Let me help you with some facts.

A new report found that the number of American Muslims involved in terrorist acts dropped by more than half compared to 2009; in 2010 twenty American Muslims were arrested for terrorism, down from 2009′s peak of forty-seven; in 2010 there were more than twenty plots by non-Muslims compared to the ten Muslim Americans arrested for domestic plots; the report supports the argument that fears of domestic radicalization are exaggerated, and was released after the American woman calling herself “Jihad Jane” pled guilty to recruiting terrorists to kill a Swedish cartoonist

http://sanford.duke.edu/centers/tcths/about/news_release20110202.php
http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/study-shows-more-non-muslim-terrorists-us

Oh...
"Since 9/11 thirty-three people have been killed in the United States in terrorist attacks – or roughly three deaths per year. This compares to the approximately 150,000 murders committed in the United States since then."

ok, everyone panic. fear. run around screaming in terror. *yawn*

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, rather than wait and see what Glen Beck comes up with, heres the summary report.

News Release -- February 2, 2011

STUDY: TERRORISM BY MUSLIM-AMERICANS DOWN IN 2010
CHAPEL HILL, NC: A new study released today by the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security shows that the number of Muslim-Americans who perpetrated or were arrested for terrorist acts declined sharply in 2010. The study, “Muslim American Terrorism Since 9/11: An Accounting,” reports that while 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes in 2009, the number dropped to 20 this past year.
The author of the study, Charles Kurzman, Professor of Sociology at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, said, “Of course, even a single terrorist plot is too many. But this trend offers a challenge for the American public: If we ratchet up our security concerns when the rate of terrorism rises, should we ratchet down our concerns when it falls?”
The study also reported that:

• The number of Muslim-Americans engaged in terrorist acts with domestic targets declined from 18 in 2009 to 10 in 2010.
• 75% of the Muslim Americans engaged in terrorist plots in 2010 were disrupted in an early stage of planning. This is consistent with the pattern of disruption since 9/11 (102 of 161 plots – 63% -- were disrupted at an early stage of planning).
• Less than one-third of the perpetrators did not come to the attention of law enforcement until after an attack was executed. However, a large majority of these Muslim American terrorist activities (35 out of 46 individuals) took place outside the United States.
• Domestic plots by Muslim-Americans are more likely to be disrupted than foreign plots. 48 of 69 individuals that plotted against domestic targets were arrested at an early stage of their activities.
• Eleven Muslim Americans have successfully executed terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11, killing 33 people. This is about 3 deaths per year. There have been approximately 150,000 murders in the United States since 9/11. According to the FBI there were approximately 15,241 murders in the United States in 2009.
• Tips from the Muslim American community provided the source of information that led to a terrorist plot being thwarted in 48 of 120 cases involving Muslim Americans.

David Schanzer, Director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, said, “this study puts into perspective the threat presented by domestic radicalization of Muslim Americans.” Schanzer noted, “Is this a problem that deserves the attention of law enforcement and the Muslim American community? Absolutely. But Americans should take note that these crimes are being perpetrated by a handful of people who actions are denounced and rejected by virtually all the Muslims living in the United States.”
The full report is available here.
The author of the report, Charles Kurman, can be reached at [email protected]
The Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security is a consortium between Duke University, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and RTI International.

I now return you to running around panicking about muslims, etc.
[yt]Y9l77RXbIXM[/yt]

 

[WC_lun]

Here's another thing to take into consideration. There are 2.2 billion Muslims out there. Just for the sake of arguement, we'll go with an inflated number of terrorist within that number, say 10,000. Of the top of my head, that equates into less than a thousanth of a percentage point of Muslims that are terrorist. That is less than 0.001% Now due to that extremely low number, the bigots among us would have us believe that an entire religion "teaches violence." That doesn't add up to me.

Just for arguements sake though, lets pretend that 2.2 billion people in this world are being indoctrinated in a "violent" religion. Does it really make sense to start treating them as if they were all terrorist? Does it make sense to start treating 2.2 billion people in the manner in which the most extremist among them say we already treat them, giving legitimacy to those insane extremist? What good does treating that many people like our enemies do? You think 10,000 terrorist are bad? Imagine 2.2 billion terrorist because more people start believing bigoted BS. For those that like numbers, that is 2,200,000,000 people that become our enemies, compared to 10,000.

No matter how you slice it, the arguement that Islam in general, or Muslims specifically are violent doesn't add up. If that was true, the war that would result would truly be the end of days. Maybe that is what the bigots are really hoping for <shrugs>

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If the panic and fear were justified, we would be reading about daily attacks, multiple attacks each day. Just ain't happening.

Oh and John, I have the answer to "who'll be next to shoot folks".
Teenagers.
2 Teens Arrested After 5 Injured in Shooting in S.F.
Maybe you guys will even get lucky and at least one of them will be named Hassan or Abdul.

Me, I made it out alive, again, from the Halal market I regularly shop at.
I even saw ninja girls there buying cucumbers.

 

[Twin Fist]

Bob
you will ignore them (the numbers)anyway, you are famous for ignoring reality when that reality is in any way negative towards muslims.

sorry bro, i love you, but you are incapable of admitting the truth about the muslim threat.

you have proven it over and over.

i get it, you are a nice guy, you dont want to sound like mean old bigoted John

but here is the catch

it isnt bigotry if it is the truth

the truth is never bigoted

the truth is that every month we have another muslim attack or attempted attack on this country, or another one.

and every time, you throw up the ****ing crusades, in a weak attempt to cloud the truth

there is a threat from islam

how large of a threat may be open for debate, but you wont even admitt it is there at all.

and even IF there is a threat from christians, that in NO WAY dimishes or cancels out the islamic threat, but you always like to act like it does.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and your intentions are noble as all get out.

and just as doomed. Your thinking is pre 9-11, and it is as useless as it is archaic.



WC
this:
"There are 2.2 billion Muslims out there. Just for the sake of arguement, we'll go with an inflated number of terrorist within that number, say 10,000"

is errant non-sense

actual surveys in the middle east show support for terror groups at 30%

whats 30% of 2.2 billion? a **** load more than 10K

hell, even if it is ONE ****ing percent, it is a **** ton more than 10K

your 10K is wishfull thinking

dooficity, as it were

 

[Twin Fist]

and niether I nor anyone else is panicking

the ostrich like head in the sand denial of reality strikes me as more akin to panick than simple honesty in admitting the threat does

 

[WC_lun]

and niether I nor anyone else is panicking
the ostrich like head in the sand denial of reality strikes me as more akin to panick than simple honesty in admitting the threat does

Actually, I think myself and others know what the threat is better than you. The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist of all sides who would use hate as a tool to promote thier own agenda. In this case, that does not include Muslims as a whole.

 

[David43515]

I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?

 

[Sukerkin]

You have to watch out for the psychological 'poison' in that tho', John. Acknowledging a threat and going on to treat all of a certain people as being potentially a part of that threat (because you can't tell the good from the bad just by looking) has a price.

To use an example that draws upon much more recent events than the Crusades {and one of which I am personally deeply ashamed (apologies to YL in advance)}; because of the fact that I grew up not only under the Nuclear Shadow but also the much more visceral threat of the IRA planting bombs in public places, I am automatically suspicious and distrustful of anyone with an Irish accent.

"So what?", you might ask. What that means is that because of the actions of a minority of a population, I now do not trust any of them - that is not rational and I cannot help it, no matter how ridiculous I intellectually know it is.

The moral is to beware the negative effects on yourself of prolonged and institutionalised hatred of others.

 

[Steve]

I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?

In custody.

 

[Twin Fist]

Actually, I think myself and others know what the threat is better than you. The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist of all sides who would use hate as a tool to promote thier own agenda. In this case, that does not include Muslims as a whole.

I am not sure you know how to tell time better than me. No disrespect, but i dont think i have ever agreed with you

on anything. Your posted opinions dont strike me as being well thought out, based in reality, or for that matter based on anything other than "feelings" and fairy dust. Good example:

"The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist"

this is simply stupid, fairy tale wishfull thinking.

arrogance never blew anyone up

arrogance never cut someone's head off

arrogance didnt create a hole in the side of the USS Cole or bring down an embassy

DUH

get out of your theorhetical world and come here to planet reality

here, people are planning to kill you RIGHT NOW

thats reality, and that is the threat

 

[Twin Fist]

The moral is to beware the negative effects on yourself of prolonged and institutionalised hatred of others.

i dont hate muslims

I hate islam

and i would rather go through life being HONEST about the bad guys than pretending there are none just because saying there are is too mean........

 

[elder999]

i dont hate muslims

I hate islam

And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.

Why? What is it that you actually know of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but Islam itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.

You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you know any?

 

[Archangel M]

Who's panicking?
Who's "hating"?

That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.

The current threat when it comes to large scale terror attacks (9/11, bio-terror, train bombings, etc. not a school shooting, workplace killing etc) is from Islamic extremism. The Lackawanna Six were in your own backyard Bob. Some of them were trained in camps where Osama himself taught (I think some of them even met the man). I'm not saying to "be worried". But acting like there is no threat at all is stupid.

 

[granfire]

And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.

Why? What is it that you actually know of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but Islam itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.

You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you know any?

To paraphrase Mort from the penguins of Madagascar:
"I don't have to know to hate"

 

[Twin Fist]

And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.

Why? What is it that you actually know of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but Islam itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.

You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you know any?

i have known plenty of muslims and by and large, they were ok people

thats why i dont have a problem with them

I have a problem with thier religion which is caustic and rotten from top to bottom

founded by a pedophile, a warlord who proclaimed himself a prophet and killed anyone that disagreed

he preached violence, rape torture and muder

forced conversions

world wide conquests

it is a hatefull, evil, violent belief system

i dont care what good things muslims have done, if they follow that book, they are edifying a child molesting murderer

Jesus never killed anyone

Jesus didnt pump a NINE YEAR OLD

even Joe Smith didnt go THERE

islam has produced as much evil as nazism and marxism, and should be included in the lists of great evils of the world.

but the people are ok, they are just deluded

unless they take that **** too seriously and start thinking it is cool to kill a few infidels

as long as they dont do that, i got no problem with THEM

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who's panicking?
Who's "hating"?

That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.

The current threat when it comes to large scale terror attacks (9/11, bio-terror, train bombings, etc. not a school shooting, workplace killing etc) is from Islamic extremism. The Lackawanna Six were in your own backyard Bob. Some of them were trained in camps where Osama himself taught (I think some of them even met the man). I'm not saying to "be worried". But acting like there is no threat at all is stupid.

Large scale threats. 9/11 was the only large scale threat the continental US has faced.
Everything else has been small potatoes. Before and since.
In the US.
We went over this with all the hijacking discussions.

As to the "Lackawanna Six"
Yeah, my back yard.
About 15 minutes walking distance in fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Six
All guilty, locked up, except 1 who died by hellfire missile.

I'm still not worried or concerned.

i dont hate muslims

I hate islam

and i would rather go through life being HONEST about the bad guys than pretending there are none just because saying there are is too mean........

John,
I've said there IS a risk.
What I've also said is, it's not as big as you and bill make it out to be.


I work by the numbers.
I want to know who the enemy is.
How can I ID him?
Where is he positioned?
What is his offensive and defensive capabilities?
What is his unit strength?
What weapons does he have at his disposal?

What I get back is the equivalent of someone riding into town on a near death horse screaming about the indians are coming, and then we all sit around for hours wondering where the hell they are.

Sorry. Not gonna play.

I work on facts. Not 'well I believe'.
Here's the facts:

US Population: 308 Million (308,745,538) (2010)

Islamic Population of the US:
1.8 Million (2011) 0.6% of the U.S. population (2011)[1] (CIA World Factbook)
or
2.5 Million (2009) 0.8% of the U.S. population (2009)[2](Pew Research Center)

lets keep those -actual facts- in mind now. I repeat (John, bill) these are actual facts.

Here's the report:

http://sanford.duke.edu/centers/tcths/about/news_release20110202.phpNews Release -- February 2, 2011

STUDY: TERRORISM BY MUSLIM-AMERICANS DOWN IN 2010
CHAPEL HILL, NC: A new study released today by the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security shows that the number of Muslim-Americans who perpetrated or were arrested for terrorist acts declined sharply in 2010. The study, &#8220;Muslim American Terrorism Since 9/11: An Accounting,&#8221; reports that while 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes in 2009, the number dropped to 20 this past year.
The author of the study, Charles Kurzman, Professor of Sociology at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, said, &#8220;Of course, even a single terrorist plot is too many. But this trend offers a challenge for the American public: If we ratchet up our security concerns when the rate of terrorism rises, should we ratchet down our concerns when it falls?&#8221;
The study also reported that:

• The number of Muslim-Americans engaged in terrorist acts with domestic targets declined from 18 in 2009 to 10 in 2010.
• 75% of the Muslim Americans engaged in terrorist plots in 2010 were disrupted in an early stage of planning. This is consistent with the pattern of disruption since 9/11 (102 of 161 plots &#8211; 63% -- were disrupted at an early stage of planning).
• Less than one-third of the perpetrators did not come to the attention of law enforcement until after an attack was executed. However, a large majority of these Muslim American terrorist activities (35 out of 46 individuals) took place outside the United States.
• Domestic plots by Muslim-Americans are more likely to be disrupted than foreign plots. 48 of 69 individuals that plotted against domestic targets were arrested at an early stage of their activities.
• Eleven Muslim Americans have successfully executed terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11, killing 33 people. This is about 3 deaths per year. There have been approximately 150,000 murders in the United States since 9/11. According to the FBI there were approximately 15,241 murders in the United States in 2009.
• Tips from the Muslim American community provided the source of information that led to a terrorist plot being thwarted in 48 of 120 cases involving Muslim Americans.

David Schanzer, Director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, said, &#8220;this study puts into perspective the threat presented by domestic radicalization of Muslim Americans.&#8221; Schanzer noted, &#8220;Is this a problem that deserves the attention of law enforcement and the Muslim American community? Absolutely. But Americans should take note that these crimes are being perpetrated by a handful of people who actions are denounced and rejected by virtually all the Muslims living in the United States.&#8221;
The full report is available here.
The author of the report, Charles Kurman, can be reached at [email protected]
The Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security is a consortium between Duke University, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and RTI International.

So...
20 Muslim people out of 1,800,000 committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes in 2010.
"Eleven Muslim Americans have successfully executed terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11, killing 33 people. This is about 3 deaths per year. There have been approximately 150,000 murders in the United States since 9/11. According to the FBI there were approximately 15,241 murders in the United States in 2009."


So.
Who should I fear more?
The muslim terrorist who screams to Allah while hating me, or the distracted teen driver who is busy sexting while driving on the highway?

Considering how many of those I see daily, I know which one I'm afraid of.

But yes John.
There is a threat of Muslim Terrorism in the US.
There is a definite possibility of an Islamic Terrorist attacking us at any moment.
It's more probable however that I'll have a car accident or case of the runs before that happens to me.

Possibility, probability, perspective.

You in Texas have a higher chance of Mexican Army troops violating your borders, than an Islamic Terror act.
Yes, I know. Ft. Hood.
That was 1 incident.
You've had a dozen Mex Army incursions this year alone.

How about this. We defend the country, period. Making it stronger against any outside attacker, and against inside attackers, gets us both what we really want.
A safer nation.

Oh and John, 20 muslims out of 1.8 million muslims...is NOT "A LOT".

But I'd still grab a cold beverage with you if I run through your part of the state on any of my trips that way.

 

[Twin Fist]

yeah...cuz the ones we catch..those are the ONLY ones, right Bob??


come on dude...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Give me different numbers John.
It's all I'm saying.

You insist I am under estimating the threat.
I've given you the basis for my position.
You insist that there is more of a threat than me.

You need to back that up with some hard facts.

But. Stick to US numbers.
After all, we don't live in India, Iraq, or DeNile do we.

So, I offer up a rather large and in depth study done at a major university.
I also offer up Official US Census and survey numbers.

Your evidence please.