History of Islamic Hostility and an Analysis of Current Threat Potential

[Brian King]

David43515 wrote:

"I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?"

I must say, how rude to ask a non-related question on a thread dealing with Christian hate and violence thru the centuries. LOL

There have been interviews with one's wife. "He loves America and is a proud American" This same guy also had his online Muslim dating profile in the news regarding his search for wife number two, there have been interviews with neighbors in their gated community (shocked, he seemed so normal) and one of them had a bunch of youtube clips that have been making the rounds on the news. Interesting stuff that details his feeling and thoughts, interviews from fellow mosque attendee's ...shock, a quite person that stayed to themselves. This is all from memory...and mine is often faulty...if anyone in this thread is truly interested google is your friend.

Not much in the news about the third person that turned them in who was reported also an ex-con. Not sure if they were turned in out of patriotic/religious duty, or as often is the case a deal for some lesser caught criminal activity...that is pure speculation on my part and trying to read between the lines of what has and has not been disclosed.

I know some Christians that I view as toxic. They are quick to judge others without first looking deep in themselves, they are sharp tongued and bitter, their understanding of theology is shallow, they often feel that they must rescue others by pointing out 'sins', they take their role as moral martyrs and righteous judges personally and feel they have the right to comment on others practices or lack of, with zeal and gusto putting their opinions into most every conversation. I see the very same traits in so many of the anti Christian postings in this and other threads. Not sure if the blind eagerness to battle with what some see as wrong has turned them into that which they say they despise or if it is a lack of moral courage that has to be disguised and camouflaged in their own self-righteous attacks. Regardless, I find the many threads on Martial Talk like this one fascinating even if fruitless. Please carry on.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Twin Fist]

we have danced this dance before Bob, and frankly, i value my high opinion of you, and this subject erodes that everytime it comes up.

so, in order to avoid losing any respect for my friend, i will conceed

yep, NO MUSLIM THREAT AT ALL, hell CHRISTIANS are more dangerous than anyone else

just ask Bob.

going somewhere to drink now.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

John,
You're missing my point, and just admitted you have no facts, just feelings.
Sorry, but that's pretty lame.

Concede. Because you have nothing to justify your hatred.
When I've in fact repeatedly agreed with you there IS the potential of a threat, and all I've been doing is asking you to correct my numbers, that you see as so wrong.


Careful driving after that drink.
You might hit a few hundred thousand Al Quida shock troops on maneuvers outside of town.
Or a cow.
I wonder what is more probable?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

MOD NOTE:
The 4 posts in the thread that looked to specifically relate to the subjects of the original post have been copied to a new thread, and this one renamed to better describe what it became. Please discuss the OP subjects in the new, easier to read thread.

Thank you.

 

[WC_lun]

I am not sure you know how to tell time better than me. No disrespect, but i dont think i have ever agreed with you

on anything. Your posted opinions dont strike me as being well thought out, based in reality, or for that matter based on anything other than "feelings" and fairy dust. Good example:

"The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist"

this is simply stupid, fairy tale wishfull thinking.

arrogance never blew anyone up

arrogance never cut someone's head off

arrogance didnt create a hole in the side of the USS Cole or bring down an embassy

DUH

get out of your theorhetical world and come here to planet reality

here, people are planning to kill you RIGHT NOW

thats reality, and that is the threat

Arrogance in that an opinion of how the world works gives a person the right to preach hate, ignorance, or even kill others. When you presume to know so much about others that you are willing to kill them, that is arrogance to the nth degree. The terrorist have this quality.

You have been given numbers and facts that contradict your theories, yet I am the one you say is operating on feelings. Seems you have it a bit backwards. I refuse to view an entire religion and those who follow it through the lens of ignorance and hatred. Those feelings are not condusive to seeing te truth of any situation.

We actually have agreed on a couple of things, including the new NY law.

As far as reality, seems to me that focusing on the relative low number of terrorist and those they recruit would be more effective than focusing on the much larger number of followers of Islam. Hating on an entire religion does not seem very realistic either.

 

[yorkshirelad]

.
To use an example that draws upon much more recent events than the Crusades {and one of which I am personally deeply ashamed (apologies to YL in advance)}; because of the fact that I grew up not only under the Nuclear Shadow but also the much more visceral threat of the IRA planting bombs in public places, I am automatically suspicious and distrustful of anyone with an Irish accent.
.

You bigotted bastard!! Just kidding!

 

[Twin Fist]

John,
You're missing my point, and just admitted you have no facts, just feelings.
Sorry, but that's pretty lame.

Bob
dont push it

i am walkign away becasue i value your friendship more than i do proving my point.

dont be a smartass and make me re-evaluate that decision k?

just be cool

 

[Twin Fist]

You have been given numbers and facts that contradict your theories, yet I am the one you say is operating on feelings.

you havnt presented fact ONE to date

and you are boring me

idealists bore the hell out of me.

 

[Sensei Payne]

you havnt presented fact ONE to date

and you are boring me

idealists bore the hell out of me.

This sort of FOX News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its TF's fault.

It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on FOX News...You would have a Gleen Beck/Bill O'Reily Type guy that is set in his own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute his opinions, and of course, since its the FOX news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.

Hate is never a good thing.- If you hate someone, something, or a group, whatever. You might be in need of some counseling, because there are underlying issues that have never been addressed, and I hope you do as soon as possible.

If you control the media, you can control the world. With the Dawn of the internet, its getting harder for the masses to fall for it anymore, but every once in a while. We get someone who is completely glued to it. Really its not TF's fault he feels this way...at a time or two I had started to feel the exact same way as he does...that is until I did my own research. Looking at websites there were not connected to any news media outlet. We have to put our feelings aside and think about the true issues.

-Lack of Education
-Ignorant cultural bias
-Generalization of an Entire People(prejudice)

These and others have stood the test of time...it just seems to be imbedded in the human way of thinking.

Its happened to the Jews, the Gays, the muslums, and belive it or not, its even happened to us White folks too...(IE Black Panters)

Hate begets more hate.

Yes, we should protect ourselves from the extremists on all sides.
No, we shouldn't group an entire people together for the actions of a few.

Holy Wars Are NOT anything new!-Whenever people die in mass amounts, no matter how long ago it was. It always matters...it doesn't matter who owned what a hundred years ago, and then had to protect the lands they took back a few hundred years later...NONE OF THAT MATTERS. We need to be looking at the loss of human life. What are the underlying causes.

Its not just religion. Its not just economic or Political position.

It comes down to basics of Ignorance, and Fear.

So really, its not TF's fault...its just how he precives the world..and thats fine..facts or not. The Media is keep him and those who belive the same Ignorant and fearful...and they are just reacting.

(**NOTE: Not intentionally mudslinging, just stating examples of the adverage "Right Winger/Fox News viewer, and they coincide with TF's opinions stated on this thread.)

 

[WC_lun]

That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

John, and Bill aren't stupid guys. I will disagree with them, but I will not call them stupid.

Neither one has ever ever called me and said "Bob, what's your phone number?".

And yes, I have gotten that one at least twice from folks.

As to the argument here.... I put my facts out. Others chimed in. People can read through them and make up their own minds about it all, and if my opponents are over reacting, or if I am under reacting.

I'm done.
For now.

 

[Steve]

Who's panicking?
Who's "hating"?

That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.

The current threat when it comes to large scale terror attacks (9/11, bio-terror, train bombings, etc. not a school shooting, workplace killing etc) is from Islamic extremism. The Lackawanna Six were in your own backyard Bob. Some of them were trained in camps where Osama himself taught (I think some of them even met the man). I'm not saying to "be worried". But acting like there is no threat at all is stupid.

Is it funny to anyone else that this post is two down from TF declaring he hates Islam?

This is what happens when guys like TF take simplistic positions on complex issues. It's predictable. Lots of yelling for no reason, people are told they're boring, everyone accuses everyone else of ignoring reality and no one changes their position one bit.

In my opinion, TF needs to be on a reality show where he swaps places with a guy who is a strict Muslim in New York City. The idea of TF living in a Muslim household in a city as diverse as NYC just sounds awesome to me, as would a strict Muslim living in TF's hometown with his family. Would make for great reality TV.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Is it funny to anyone else that this post is two down from TF declaring he hates Islam?

This is what happens when guys like TF take simplistic positions on complex issues. It's predictable. Lots of yelling for no reason, people are told they're boring, everyone accuses everyone else of ignoring reality and no one changes their position one bit.

I think that, for every individual, there's topics for which emotion and passion completely override reason. The other day, I was even thinking of listing what it is for each forum member: for Bill Mattocks, it's smoking weed; for TF, it's Islam; for me, bias against youth. Whatever it is for each person, though, their views of the topic are too set for actual discourse to take place.

In my opinion, TF needs to be on a reality show where he swaps places with a guy who is a strict Muslim in New York City. The idea of TF living in a Muslim household in a city as diverse as NYC just sounds awesome to me, as would a strict Muslim living in TF's hometown with his family. Would make for great reality TV.

I have to wonder if that show would survive its first day of filming.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

NY and TX don't recognize each others CCP's and NY doesn't allow open carry.
It'd go 2 days.
The diet of Texas chili and bean burritos would do the Muslim in, while a diet of hummus and falafals would finish off TF...if the snow didn't.
Either way, clean up would be a *****.

 

[yorkshirelad]

That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.

I'll tell you what mate, I'll fly to Texas and counsel John, while you go to Bradford and counsel the Pakistani islamic community. I'd like to see how that works out for you.

 

[Brian King]

Off topic, but perhaps a teachable moment. The mentors were recently asked to step up a bit in the mentoring part of being a mentor.

mentor
verb [ trans. ]
to advise or train (someone, esp. a younger colleague).
---------------------------------------------------------------

So many taking personal shots at others are making themselves look ignorant and small by doing so. Sometimes people do need admonishing, and sometimes the way to get thru to people is thru using insulting or street vernacular, but that is more often the case in face to face conflict resolution, very rarely is it effective in written discussions, other than when used like political attack adds which are used to shore up backers rather than convince those unconvinced or opposed. I recommend before hitting the submit button writing a second post, but replace the any names attached to any negative response with your own name and see how it reads. Simple exercise but might result in both more efficient deeper adult conversations and less Jerry Springer everyone yelling to be heard but no listening type of discussions. An easy example below.

Original post-

“This sort of FOX News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its TF's fault.

It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on FOX News...You would have a Gleen Beck/Bill O'Reily Type guy that is set in his own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute his opinions, and of course, since its the FOX news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.

*Hate is never a good thing.*- If you hate someone, something, or a group, whatever.* You might be in need of some counseling, because there are underlying issues that have never been addressed, and I hope you do as soon as possible.

*If you control the media, you can control the world.** With the Dawn of the internet, its getting harder for the masses to fall for it anymore, but every once in a while. We get someone who is completely glued to it.* Really its not TF's fault he feels this way...at a time or two I had started to feel the exact same way as he does...that is until I did my own research.* Looking at websites there were not connected to any news media outlet.* We have to put our *feelings *aside and think about the true issues.

-Lack of Education
-Ignorant cultural bias
-Generalization of an Entire People(prejudice)

These and others have stood the test of time...it just seems to be imbedded in the human way of thinking.

Its happened to the Jews, the Gays, the muslums, and belive it or not, its even happened to us White folks too...(IE Black Panters)

*Hate begets more hate.*

Yes, we should protect ourselves from the extremists on all sides.
No, we shouldn't group an entire people together for the actions of a few.

*Holy Wars Are _NOT_ anything new!*-Whenever people die in mass amounts, no matter how long ago it was. It always matters...it doesn't matter who owned what a hundred years ago, and then had to protect the lands they took back a few hundred years later...*NONE OF THAT MATTERS.** We need to be looking at the loss of human life. What are the underlying causes.

Its not just religion. Its not just economic or Political position.

*It comes down to basics of Ignorance, and Fear.*

So really, its not TF's fault...its just how he precives the world..and thats fine..facts or not. The Media is keep him and those who belive the same Ignorant and fearful...and they are just reacting.

(**NOTE: Not intentionally mudslinging, just stating examples of the adverage "Right Winger/Fox News viewer, and they coincide with TF's opinions stated on this thread.)
***************”

test post

This sort of CNN News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its SP's fault.

It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on CNN...You would have a two leftist types that are set in their own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute their opinions, and of course, since its the CNN news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.

*Hate is never a good thing.*- If you hate someone, something, or a group, whatever.* You might be in need of some counseling, because there are underlying issues that have never been addressed, and I hope you do as soon as possible.

*If you control the media, you can control the world.** With the Dawn of the internet, its getting harder for the masses to fall for it anymore, but every once in a while. We get someone who is completely glued to it.* Really its not SP's fault he feels this way...at a time or two I had started to feel the exact same way as he does...that is until I did my own research.* Looking at websites there were not connected to any news media outlet.* We have to put our *feelings *aside and think about the true issues.

-Lack of Education
-Ignorant cultural bias
-Generalization of an Entire People(prejudice)

These and others have stood the test of time...it just seems to be imbedded in the human way of thinking.

Its happened to the Jews, the Gays, the muslums, and belive it or not, its even happened to us White folks too...(IE Black Panters)

*Hate begets more hate.*

Yes, we should protect ourselves from the extremists on all sides.
No, we shouldn't group an entire people together for the actions of a few.

*Holy Wars Are _NOT_ anything new!*-Whenever people die in mass amounts, no matter how long ago it was. It always matters...it doesn't matter who owned what a hundred years ago, and then had to protect the lands they took back a few hundred years later...*NONE OF THAT MATTERS.** We need to be looking at the loss of human life. What are the underlying causes.

Its not just religion. Its not just economic or Political position.

*It comes down to basics of Ignorance, and Fear.*

So really, its not SP's fault...its just how he precives the world..and thats fine..facts or not. The Media is keep him and those who belive the same Ignorant and fearful...and they are just reacting.

(**NOTE: Not intentionally mudslinging, just stating examples of the adverage "Left Winger/CNN News viewer, and they coincide with SP's opinions stated on this thread.)
***************”

another example of the test

original post

That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.

test post

That seems to let fellows like WC_lun off a bit easy, in my opinion. If WC_lun were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what WC_lun says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Both are negative posts but one is more artfully written than the other in my opinion. It can be an interesting experiment and growth tool that leads to better more thoughtful writing. It also gives a second chance to avoid embarrassing misspellings (I had to chuckle at the image of a group of black thugs panting).

Regards
Brian King

 

[Sensei Payne]

I was simply pointing out one persons opinion. I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

I don't watch CNN btw.

 

[Blade96]

i feel religion in general is a threat.

I don't think believing religions are a threat is a problem, I only think it is a problem if TF or Yorkshire or anyone starts treating people bad because they are religious. Which I don't do, most my buddies have a religion of some kind or another.

 

[Brian King]

An explanation was asked for privately (and given) but where one wonders others do as well so I thought a quick public response also warranted.

I chose the both of the example posts above at random, as I felt they were good examples of issues I wanted to explore. LOL, Not to mention they were on the same page which made quoting them easier. I did not pull them as the most egregious of the thread but merely as good (and as always time is scarce) convenient examples to offer exploration.

Of course people are free to express their opinions and to do so poorly or well as is their wish and capabilities.

As long as I am already off topic might as well go even further off topic.

2nd test

Again before hitting submit, copy the title of thread or the portion of the OP that that is being addressed and place it in the beginning of the reply. Does the reply address the topic or even relate? Can the reply be adjusted and worked to at least address some small part or aspect of the OP. Watch a good or bad politician or author of a book peddling their wares. No matter the question the good have a way of spinning the conversation to the points that they wish to speak on. The bad attempt too but look boorish, the good can do it seamlessly. Like all skills it takes practice and exploration.

Of course any good conversation can take interesting ‘bunny trails and twists and turns’ but these should in my opinion be explored wisely and with the OP’s topic in mind. If a bunny trail is worth exploring then often a new thread started can continue those trains of thought without distracting or derailing the original thread. It requires a bit of discipline but as active martial artists what part of our training doesn’t?

I wish I could say that I always follow my own advice, but truth be told the discipline needed is work in progress but improvement is often the reward for exercising discipline or at least attempting to.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Sensei Payne]

That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.

Oh and I agree with you for sure. But as it turns out, the ideal and opinions that have been expressed can all be seen on a 3 hour block of prime time Fox News programming. So if he isn't watching them, then they both shop at the same propaganda store.