High Rank and Multiple Arts

[MJS]

I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser. I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ. IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.

Thoughts?

 

[tellner]

Status. Marketing. Walter Mittyism. Vanity. Been told that that's what it's all about. Unsure of ability and need reassurance. Norms within their groups.

Take your pick.

 

[exile]

I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?

Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.

If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, BEFORE you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You earn that protection, mind—it's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)

The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be treated by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.

Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that that is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.

 

[Kacey]

The way I look at it, you can either learn a small number of things in great detail, or a large number of things in broad outline - this applies to quite a few things, rank in MA's among them.

Here's an analogy: if someone learns Latin, they can learn Latinate languages more easily than someone who learns Russian and then wants to learn Spanish. Likewise, someone who earns ranks in MA #1 has learned some general principles that are going to be applicable to MA #2, and #3, and so on - making it easier to earn rank in future arts.

Also, I have seen a fair number of places that will start BB's in any art at their rank in the other art - and continue to advance those BB's whether they learn the lower level material or not, which makes it a lot easier to earn advanced degrees in multiple arts... if you pick subsequent arts with sufficient care.

For myself, I'm not interested in rank in other arts; even in TKD, gaining further rank is a way to increase my knowledge - like a friend of mine who was in a doctoral program that included a master's degree as a signpost of progress toward a Ph. D., rank is something I have earned as a byproduct of my quest for knowledge, rather than something I have sought for its own sake. I would like to train in some other arts, to increase my understanding in general, and to add the things not emphasized in TKD... but at the rate my schedule is filling, it may have to wait until I retire.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Ego and money combine to produce this obsession with high rank. I think that a lot of this has to do with low self-esteem. It may seem odd to think of people who are supposed to be at the top of the MA game as having low self-esteem, but look at the various reasons that people take up the arts. Often it is to develop self confidence or to give them a defence against bullying. Hidden in this are the seeds of low self-esteem. They dont always grow into the fully blossoming tree but it happens often enough for us to see many rank chasers.

I, too, have always had a problem with high rank in many arts, but I have come to the conclusion that a lot of this rank is what I call mate's rank or honorary rank. Honorary rank isn't such a problem as it is usually given in recognition for services to the martial arts. Mate's rank is a different kettle of fish. Its that insidious 'gift' one friend gives another, usually qid pro qou. However, you cannot tell the difference between them so it just looks like a person training 30 hours a day.

I have a good rank in one art and that is good enough for me after all the time I've put in.
I'm happy.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Many of those with lots of ranks in different arts, were most likely promote faster than those who are NOT involve with other arts.

Because of their past experiences' many learn faster too.

Joe lewis got his Black belt in less than 7 months in Okinawa, he kept beating all the Black belts in class.

Many of these people did not do for EGO"S, many want to learn something else that would help there search for building there skills.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many of us skills in plumbing,auto repairs,carpentry,electrcity,computers,fishing,diving,basketball,baseball,...plus other degrees from college,banks,special training in all kinds of things...these degrees benifit our growths.

some are just jack of all trades and master of NONE. some do become a master level.

Today many NEW students(they have train in other martial arts) come to experience a new art or different style of martial art...exploring,developling new skills, and wanting to learn more and more....

Learning martial art can be endless.....Just my thoughts here.....Still Learning..........Aloha

 

[Danjo]

High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.

 

[stone_dragone]

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

 

[terryl965]

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

It really does seem to be this way, just here in my area we have over a 100 master with master titles in 5-7 arts in they are all in there late thirty or early forty what talent they must have.

 

[Danjo]

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

I believe so. It's not uncommon for somone from Japan etc. to have fairly high rank in two arts, but more than that and it gets ridiculous. Mas Oyama was ranked 4th degree in Judo as well as being a Karate Master, for instance. But this is the sort of thing I am talking about. Eventually, it all gets very silly.

 

[elder999]

I believe so. It's not uncommon for somone from Japan etc. to have fairly high rank in two arts, but more than that and it gets ridiculous. Mas Oyama was ranked 4th degree in Judo as well as being a Karate Master, for instance. But this is the sort of thing I am talking about. Eventually, it all gets very silly.

It's also not uncommon for them to be ranked in a couple of others, but not ever say anything about it-certainly not advertise or use it as advertising. Mas Oyama, for example, also trained in daito-ryu aiki budo, and received menkyo from Yoshida Kotaro. He also held dan-rankings in both Shotokan and Goju-ryu before founding Kyokushin.

Also kind of depends on the definition of 'high" rank, I think.

 

[Danjo]

It's also not uncommon for them to be ranked in a couple of others, but not ever say anything about it-certainly not advertise or use it as advertising. Mas Oyama, for example, also trained in daito-ryu aiki budo, and received menkyo from Yoshida Kotaro. He also held dan-rankings in both Shotokan and Goju-ryu before founding Kyokushin.

Also kind of depends on the definition of 'high" rank, I think.

I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:

http://www.kenpojoe.com/

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.

 

[PatMunk]

High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.

I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person. It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.

I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.

 

[elder999]

I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:

http://www.kenpojoe.com/

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.

:lol:

Yeah, that seems like a lot. Though, partially in this example's defense,(knowing nothing else about him, though) I've got to point out that several of those multiple rankings appear to be in the same or related "arts," like everything Nindo ryu, or Parker kenpo and Dave German's TAI, and the other kenpo as well....though it is pretty questionable...and unnecessary-he certainly can't be teaching all of those things, or practicing them properly.

 

[Tames D]

High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.

I agree with you on mulitple art ranks but I'm not so sure I buy into the honorary thing. What's the purpose? I certainly wouldn't train under someone with an honorary rank with no experience in that art anymore than I would allow a Doctor with an hornorary medical degree practice on me.

 

[Jdokan]

If a contractor came to your house with claims of being a master: plumber, electrician, carpenter, landscaper, pc technician that was also prevalent in Microsoft, Novell, Cisco, Linux, etc....would you want him working in your house???? Don't think so............
BUT..that's just me...to each their own...me...I'm simply a ken/mpoist...
I like to use my hands...I don't even train in weapons (as much as I should) as most of you guys (people....sorry ladies) do....
Anyways....
Peace....
J,

 

[Danjo]

I agree with you on mulitple art ranks but I'm not so sure I buy into the honorary thing. What's the purpose? I certainly wouldn't train under someone with an honorary rank with no experience in that art anymore than I would allow a Doctor with an hornorary medical degree practice on me.

I agree completely about what you are saying. What I was talking about was the person who has been given an honorary rank and acknowledges it as such. In other words; he's not trying to hide anything or decieve anyone about his knowledge. He's merely pointing out that some organization was nice enough to pay respects to him. Sort of like the LAPD giving Jack Webb badge 714 and making him an Honorary Police Officer. He made them look good over the years on Radio and TV and they were saying thanks.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I agree completely about what you are saying. What I was talking about was the person who has been given an honorary rank and acknowledges it as such. In other words; he's not trying to hide anything or decieve anyone about his knowledge. He's merely pointing out that some organization was nice enough to pay respects to him. Sort of like the LAPD giving Jack Webb badge 714 and making him an Honorary Police Officer. He made them look good over the years on Radio and TV and they were saying thanks.

It would be nice if we saw this sort of thing more often.

You know if an instructor acknowledges an honorary rank that they are not going to be teaching anything more than the rudiments of that style and that the more profound teaching will be in their chosen art.

I like the idea of the MA community honouring one of it's members who has contributed over a long period of time. Unfortunately, all too often we see friends giving each other high rankings for monetary reasons. To see a list of more than five (let alone eighteen or twenty) arts with high rank is very sad. It gives the wrong impression of the martial arts. It suggests that such achievements are easy.

Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example. Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example). It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.

 

[Flying Crane]

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

Well, it'a actually pretty common for Chinese style martial artists to have studied several systems, but they often don't have the same ranking structure so it sort of doesn't attract the same kind of attention. But it is not uncommon for someone in the Chinese arts to teach several different systems.

I think the Chinese arts are a bit more fluid in this way, viewing it all as more similar and part of the "Bigger Picture" than seeing it as separate...

 

[Flying Crane]

Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example. Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example). It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.

I'm not championing what Mr. Rebelo seems to be presenting, but keep in mind that he only lists one single form from each of three different Tai Chi Chuan systems. That is a very limited knowledge of the complete systems. I don't know how someone comes to be a "sifu" with such a limited knowledge of the system's curriculum, but that's for another discussion I guess...