Having a ponder, things occuring to me...

[now disabled]

it's easier to soften the hard than to harden the soft.

I get your meaning , yup there a but coming lol , There can be soft and hard in Daito-ryu and Aikido all wrapped up in the one tech lol , if you take a look at some of Yamaguchi Seigo's techs you will see both (he was a very well known Aikido shihan) and if you look at one of his very prolific protege Christain Tissier you will see the exact same hard and soft within the same tech and yes Saito Morihiro to you will see the hard and the soft (to a lesser extent lol) and even in Yoshinkan Aikido (tho less obvious for sure) there is hard and soft lol

That is the wonders of the magical and mystical world of AIKI lol ( and again I'm not talking the no touch stuff)

 

[pdg]

So is there Daito-ryu in TKD ...nope lol but there may look like there is for sure and as for Aikido no definitely not lol as that is a adapted form of Daito-ryu (with one or two bits from other places) and then it depends which school as to how much of the second two aiki methods are present and lol and Aikido is more flowing than Diato -ryu (but again depends on the school lol)

Well...

There's always more than one way of looking at things

So, one way is that Daito-Ryu (Aiki-jujitsu according to wiki) was one of the influences in TSD, which was the basis for TKD.

Another way...

TKD came from many influences. As has been suggested elsewhere, the more 'aikido' arts were originally intended for people who had experience. It makes much sense that if that were the case, it would be best to work with what these people already knew.

So, the moves and techniques that were influenced by, developed from or directly lifted from other arts are also the techniques that are expanded upon in the aiki finishing school.

So I might agree to "there is no Daito-Ryu in TKD", but from the other side, there is definitely (pre) TKD in Daito-Ryu and hence aikido.

 

[now disabled]

So, one way is that Daito-Ryu (Aiki-jujitsu according to wiki) was one of the influences in TSD, which was the basis for TKD.

Eh I wouldn't overly put to much faith in wiki lol..............also Do remember tat the interest in Daito-ryu surged with the poularity of Aikido lol and as Daito-ryu is Koryu (ok not gonna get into lineages lol) then there are and were many who were claiming to have come from that. Also Takeda Sokaku did as does have a very wide following.
The only Korean Art I can say that I see Daito-ryu in is Hapkido (again I ain't getting into the did he didnt he argument lol)

TKD came from many influences. As has been suggested elsewhere, the more 'aikido' arts were originally intended for people who had experience. It makes much sense that if that were the case, it would be best to work with what these people already knew.

I wouldn't agree that Aikido was meant for the people who already knew lol...what I meant there was that the original students of Ueshiba Morihei ...umm kina all knew how to strike etc so he didn't have to teach them that as such.
Also as you will have read there was a "parting of the ways" between Ueshiba Morihei and Takeda Sokaku (again lots of speculation as to why ). Also do bear in mind that Ueshiba Morihei never got a Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda Sokaku (full transmission scroll) (ok at that time no one had gotten one from him lol) and Ueshiba Morihei adapted his own style to what he had leaned, yes what you are seeing today is a watered down version of what he originally taught (pre war) and with more emphisis on the spiritual side (I will not use Aiki here as it may create the wrong impression lol) and in truth what was exported post war was the Aikido his son the second Doshu (and even that he had problems with as he had two massive massive icons of Ueshiba Morihei to deal with)

So, the moves and techniques that were influenced by, developed from or directly lifted from other arts are also the techniques that are expanded upon in the aiki finishing school

Aiki finishing school there isn't one lol

So I might agree to "there is no Daito-Ryu in TKD", but from the other side, there is definitely (pre) TKD in Daito-Ryu and hence aikido.

Hmmmm well that does depend on if you believe the Daito-ryu lineages but I still would really dout that there is any TKD or any Korean art in Daito-ryu (I say that as Korea was always looked down on by the Japanese and not just at the time of the second War if anything there is more likely to be influences in Daito-ryu from Chinese origin but again that I do not really know just my opinion ad yet again it depends if you actually believe the Daito-ryu lineage pre Takeda Sokaku or not
As for TKD in Aikido ...nope lol that there is not you may indeed see things that are similar but they did not come from TKD my friend that I'd almost stake my house on lol and the only really well known Korean that I know of that had contact with the Ueshiba family (I am talking pre war) was the founder of Hapkido and that was tenuous and only from an interview with he second Doshu that I was told about when he was asked if he had ever seen the founder of Hapkido around Takeda Sokaku and the Doshu said yes he had seen a few Koreans or people of Korean origin around seminars Takeda Sokaku had given (don't take that as set in stone as there is a lot of controversy around that area lol), Also it was reported that The founder of Hapikido did contact the second Doshu on the death of his father Ueshiba Morihei to pay respects but again that was only a report lol). So I will say nope there ain't no TKD in Aikido , there may be things that look like it but no lol and I said to you before I think the circular movements etc in TKD - yes Aikido has plenty of them- are similar but as to if that influence comes from Aikido or elsewhere that I do not know but at a guess it might come from Karate or from a Chinese influence and anyway Aikido is not the only Art that uses circular dynamics lol it just possibly the moset widely know these days (and slammed for it lol)

 

[pdg]

As for TKD in Aikido ...nope lol that there is not you may indeed see things that are similar but they did not come from TKD

You're still being far too literal.

I personally refuse to believe that any art we have access to nowadays was developed in perfect isolation with no influence from anywhere else.

What I can easily believe is that people deny influence from countries they don't like - politically, ideologically or otherwise.

So, the Japanese won't admit Korean influence because it'd be beneath them. Certain Korean art practitioners will never admit Japanese influence. A lot of people consider Okinawa just a part of Japan, so there's no outside influence. Others view Okinawa as utterly separate from Japan so can safely cite Okinawa as a source without having anything Japanese. Anything making it's way over from or through China depends on that particular person's mood.

So, did some stuff go back and forth between aikido and tkd during their formative years? I think certainly.

Did other stuff more or less present in both systems come from a common source but have different interpretations (and accounts of origin) depending on who brought it? Silly to think otherwise imo.

Did people lie about where they 'found' something? Every damn day now, it wasn't that different ~70 years ago.


I think it should be noted that I'm not attempting to rewrite history, or change any art - I only have interest in what I can selfishly do for me and my understanding.

In every art I've looked into there are techniques where people say something like "it's purpose is xyz, but it doesn't really work / you need to be very advanced/fast to make it work" - then you look elsewhere and something eerily similar is being applied differently and working flawlessly for near beginners...

 

[pdg]

Aiki finishing school there isn't one

Again, not literally as in a different branch or school.

But, the art as a whole being intended to work for people with a background of striking/grappling in place already.

 

[hoshin1600]

i was watching a TKD Youtube video and i swear i saw some duck billed platypus techniques mixed in there.
but seriously the little i studied under TKD and a BB in Aikido, i do not see ANY similarity at all. can you explain more ? where are the throws in TKD? the harmony with the opponent?

 

[now disabled]

Again, not literally as in a different branch or school.

But, the art as a whole being intended to work for people with a background of striking/grappling in place already.

I think I get you

Your looking to further advance yourself and dig deeper into what you are capable of achieving in your own path which is tremendous.

Sorry if you think I am being to literal lol

Just my own thoughts here to you, Yes Daito-ryu is appealing as it looks as most of the vids show that I have seen to be more direct and if you want brutal in it's approach, which it is and it isn't lol.... i think I said to you before that from the background you have look to the Aikikai schools as there you will get the feel of the Aiki you are looking for imo ....Daito-ryu , well I don't know of anyone in this country that is teaching that, and really the part of it I feel and sense you are looking for is not the basic jujtsu which well enough said there lol.... the aiki bits you I feel will have to look towards Aikido and the Aikikai to get the real flow that you will be able to possibly incorporate, Yes Yoshinkan is closer to the pre war (actually it really is the pre war stuff imo) but it may conflict more with your TKD where as the Akikai shouldn't as much ...ok there is also the Ki school from Tohei I'm not sure those guys are very very good technicians and very clean in the techs but it may (just in my thoughts for your TKD background) just be to flowing and not quite direct enough.

If you want Daito - ryu then really and what you are wanting I'd suggest either the states or really Japan and the lineage I'd look for to go with yours is more the Takumakai but just my opinion

Actually maybe @gpseymour might be a better bet to advise as his style of NGA might really be the one that would fit more than any

 

[now disabled]

i was watching a TKD Youtube video and i swear i saw some duck billed platypus techniques mixed in there.
but seriously the little i studied under TKD and a BB in Aikido, i do not see ANY similarity at all. can you explain more ? where are the throws in TKD? the harmony with the opponent?

I might be wrong but I think it more he looking at the finishing and atemi of Daito-ryu and well I may be guilty of saying that the Aikido i learned had the atemi still there and the circular movements are similar to Aikido so possibly I am to blame

 

[now disabled]

So, did some stuff go back and forth between aikido and tkd during their formative years?

Honestly I would really seriously doubt that in any way, Japan was at it's most "nationalist during the "forming" of Aikido and well no there is no TKD in Aikido lol and I am not just going on nationalistic lines but even in the earliest published work (not the first as that really was put together by Tomiki and edited by him and said the be by Ueshiba Morihei but it wasn't lol) Budo there is no TKD in it at all not even a trace lol and psot war when the spiritual side came more in that is not Korean in any way at all lol that came from one place lol

 

[pdg]

but seriously the little i studied under TKD and a BB in Aikido, i do not see ANY similarity at all. can you explain more ? where are the throws in TKD? the harmony with the opponent?

I don't know about in aikido - it's unlikely to be taught now I think. My interpretation is that originally it didn't need to be taught (they already knew) and that now it's considered contrary to the philosophy.

In tkd, it's not really taught (I think even less so in kkw tkd) as again, it's against the 'new' philosophy.

Things like throws and flow - that requires a reinterpretation of the technique, and oftentimes you'll need 3, 4 or more combined to get to the same point - that's actually combined into one flow, not each technique with a stop and rechamber... Even a simple hard block - if you don't think "block", but fully include what happens before and what you can do after that snapshot it's a whole different situation.

If you've only done a bit of tkd, and then only looked at what is taught and how it's taught, then it simply won't be there.

Really, I've only done a bit (2.5 years so far) but my interest is depth as well as width so I find myself looking outside as well as inside.

 

[now disabled]

I'm not sure those guys are very very good

That bit should read I'm not sure. Those guys are very very god etc .............it won't let me edit it lol sorry my grammar was bad

 

[now disabled]

I don't know about in aikido - it's unlikely to be taught now I think. My interpretation is that originally it didn't need to be taught (they already knew) and that now it's considered contrary to the philosophy.

In tkd, it's not really taught (I think even less so in kkw tkd) as again, it's against the 'new' philosophy.

Things like throws and flow - that requires a reinterpretation of the technique, and oftentimes you'll need 3, 4 or more combined to get to the same point - that's actually combined into one flow, not each technique with a stop and rechamber... Even a simple hard block - if you don't think "block", but fully include what happens before and what you can do after that snapshot it's a whole different situation.

If you've only done a bit of tkd, and then only looked at what is taught and how it's taught, then it simply won't be there.

Really, I've only done a bit (2.5 years so far) but my interest is depth as well as width so I find myself looking outside as well as inside.

Ueshiba did stress atemi lol .....just post war things changed and that has been well covered ..... It is taught lol just not stressed in some schools

Ueshiba didn't include learning how to strike or punch etc as most of his students did already know lol ....but atemi waa is slightly different to doing punching or kicking drills and if you have looked into Daito-ryu then you will see that the atemi are used in a different way and for a different purpose than in TKD.

Aikido use Atemi as a way to break or aid in breaking the kuzushi of an opponent as opposed to a straight knock out/down ...ok the atemi you are seeing at the end in Daito-ryu jujutsu and Aiki-jujutsu are the coup de grace as it were but that is after the pin as it were

 

[pdg]

Honestly I would really seriously doubt that in any way, Japan was at it's most "nationalist during the "forming" of Aikido and well no there is no TKD in Aikido lol and I am not just going on nationalistic lines but even in the earliest published work

Think of the situation at that time.

What would have been the outcome had someone like that published that they had an influence from Korea?

Far safer for them to claim (and to stick to that claim) that it was purely an internal influence - and now who is to say whether it was or wasn't? And is it important anyway?

I'm not claiming anything came from any specific source, but if the similarities allow a different application then I'll play with it.

 

[now disabled]

Think of the situation at that time.

What would have been the outcome had someone like that published that they had an influence from Korea?

Far safer for them to claim (and to stick to that claim) that it was purely an internal influence - and now who is to say whether it was or wasn't? And is it important anyway?

I'm not claiming anything came from any specific source, but if the similarities allow a different application then I'll play with it.

Ok but lol there are no influences of TKD in Aikido or Daito -ryu .... yes I do see where you are seeing similarities at points but that is nothing to do with TKD or TSD lol they are just similarities that are there ...I could look at I guess some chinese arts and see things and say yes I do the same or similar (I don't know of any just making a hypothetical point) I can look at and have at Hapkido and said yup that is that (different name ) but they do have a common ancestor lol and also tere are some techs like wrist locks that are in both Daito-ryu and Aikido but they are not exclusive to just them ...Kotegaeshi is a good example yes it called the same in Aikido and Daito -ryu (execution nearly the same ) but other systems and arts have the same and were did it originally come from ? well that is something lost in time. Also if and when you are saying about Daito-ryu you are aware that Takeda Sokaku was illiterate. And during Aikido's formation as such it pretty likely that if Koreans were involved they might have shown up somewhere lol. There are a ew in Takeda Sokaku's records but as students not teachers lol

 

[now disabled]

Think of the situation at that time.

What would have been the outcome had someone like that published that they had an influence from Korea?

Far safer for them to claim (and to stick to that claim) that it was purely an internal influence - and now who is to say whether it was or wasn't? And is it important anyway?

I'm not claiming anything came from any specific source, but if the similarities allow a different application then I'll play with it.

If your that interested in the early Aikido stuff then try get a hold off Ueshiba Morihei's early book Budo that was his techs from the 30's and before Aikido as a name was born you might get a surprise at things and techs that are there lol.............Then if you can and want to look at that stuff look to the Yoshinkan stuff that almost identical lol....evn the names in the Yoshinkan like ikajo thru gokajo are the same as the daito-ryu lol it was later they were changed in the Aikikai lol and yes in that book I think depending which version you get they will be what the Aikikai uses and that so the story goes id the second Doshu's doing lol. Shioda Gozo didn't change them lol

 

[pdg]

Ok but lol there are no influences of TKD in Aikido or Daito -ryu .... .........

There are a ew in Takeda Sokaku's records but as students not teachers lol

And the teacher wasn't influenced at all, in any way, by what his students brought with them?

Not that they could possibly have brought anything with the yet to exist tkd label, that much I can freely acknowledge, but earlier arts? Stuff that he didn't necessarily have other exposure to?

 

[now disabled]

And the teacher wasn't influenced at all, in any way, by what his students brought with them?

Not that they could possibly have brought anything with the yet to exist tkd label, that much I can freely acknowledge, but earlier arts? Stuff that he didn't necessarily have other exposure to?

I have severe doubts that Takada Sokaku would take anything from his students other than money lol

I still feel fairly sure that there was no korean influence in either Daito-ryu or Aikido lol ... Koreans and anything of that ilk was not well received in Japan but if you wish to believe then no worries lol

 

[pdg]

I have severe doubts that Takada Sokaku would take anything from his students other than money lol

I still feel fairly sure that there was no korean influence in either Daito-ryu or Aikido lol ... Koreans and anything of that ilk was not well received in Japan but if you wish to believe then no worries lol

I'm not bothered either way - maybe some transferred, maybe it didn't.

Maybe it was as I say a common predecessor of both (probably more likely).

However it did or didn't happen, there's enough similarities to adjust one or the other and still have something useful - or at the very least something interesting that people don't expect to happen

 

[Mitlov]

That's easy. There was a huge push in Korea, at the time, to do anything and everything possible to distance themselves from the Japanese. The same reason there were a lot of people claiming that TKD was directly evolved from ancient Korean arts.

Certainly, TKD evolved and changed significantly from it's Japanese roots. But initially, it was a renaming.

I've trained in Shotokan, TKD, and now TSD(well, Chuck Norris's TSD offshoot Chun Kuk Do), and I agree with this 100%. There's a very clear evolutionary line from Shotokan to TSD to TKD. They're not identical, but clearly they're related, with the same basic building blocks and just an ever-increasing emphasis on kicking. But they're all very similar compared to a style like Aikido. And the argument that TKD had nothing to do with Shotokan seems to me to just be a political fiction (albeit very understandable given Japan's atrocities during the occupation of Korea).

Shotokan's Heian Nidan:

TSD's Pyong An Yi Dan:

ITF TKD's Won Hyo:

 

[now disabled]

I'm not bothered either way - maybe some transferred, maybe it didn't.

Maybe it was as I say a common predecessor of both (probably more likely).

However it did or didn't happen, there's enough similarities to adjust one or the other and still have something useful - or at the very least something interesting that people don't expect to happen

oh for sure if you do the unexpected then esp if you use it against folks in your dojang then yup it will work .........that said you might not be over popular if you execute one of the throws as ummm you guys don't tend to use mats and eh umm remember they might not know how to break fall lol