'Korean karate': candor and denial

[tkd1964]

who is able to parlay his clout into a paramount position in the South Korean MA scene and, as Gm. Kim points out, bring embarrassingly harsh pressure to bear on dissenters who didn't sign on the Oh Do Kwan dotted line. .

GM Kim never said that. You are reading into it. He said without his protection, the ARMY sent him to the DMZ. General Choi did not and didn't have the power to, plus this was after the armistice, there was no fighting. What harsh pressure??? He didn't want to join the Oh Do Kwan and teach so the Army sent him on his way. I believe most soldiers would be doing their Army service in the DMZ.

 

[tkd1964]

He referred to someone as a teacher, a supposedly very prominent calligrapher, whom no one can find any evidence for, in a part of Korea where taekyon was never practiced (it was, as Song Duk Ki himself emphasized in his book, restricted to an area around Seoul). What does that have to do with learning the basics of anything?
.

What are you talking about? I gave you his FIRST HAND account of what he learned. Basics is what he said he learned. This is not coming from second or third hand sources but from the man himself.

You can say it's code adding TK but that is just you reading into it again. Also, you are saying that his calligrapher teacher never exsisted so he is lying about being a calligrapher. Maybe he didn't do all those calligraphy drawings that are hanging in studios around the world. How could he, his calligraphy teacher never exsisted so he couldn't have learned that art. Man, have I been duped.


Mike

 

[exile]

GM Kim never said that. You are reading into it. He said without his protection, the ARMY sent him to the DMZ. General Choi did not and didn't have the power to, plus this was after the armistice, there was no fighting. What harsh pressure??? He didn't want to join the Oh Do Kwan and teach so the Army sent him on his way. I believe most soldiers would be doing their Army service in the DMZ.

Are we reading the same article???

It was everyone’s duty to serve in the Army. General Choi had an important position in the Korean Army and used it to promote his Taekwondo system. Anyone with previous training would come before him and be asked to forget their old training and follow his new system. In return, he would be sure they received a good, safe position away from the DMZ (Demilitarized Zone at the 38th parallel).​

The deal was clear: the default is, you get sent to the DMZ, the 'hot' zone, (just as the default during the Vietnam War for draftees was service in Vietnam) unless you play ball with the General. And 'no fighting??' I had relatives who were in Korea on active service after the war, and the DMZ was, apart from Berlin, the number one hot spot in the world at that time, with hostilities on the verge of resuming on any number of occasions. It and Berlin were probably the two most dangerous military assignment in the world for a soldier, and the General's OK would get you exempted. Since you're claiming the opposite, why don't you—and others following this thread—check out the following inventory of events during a much later, 'cooler' time frame here. Go on, tkd, read it to the end, all the way down, and tell me 'there was no fighting' . And this is where a Korean soldier was likely to get pitchforked into in the decade following cessation of active hostilities, because that was where the danger was and where the men were needed to hold back the tide of the enormous North Korean army... unless you played ball with the General, one of the highest-ranking military officers in the country.

And you are seriously suggesting that the General's exercise of his ability to keep you from the high probablilty of being sent up to the DMZ, with your signing on with Oh Do Kwan as the quid pro quo, wasn't hardball/armtwisting of the most flagrant kind?? If not, what exactly is your point?

 

[exile]

First of all, 'there was no fighting there'... see my immediately preceding post, tkd.

Next....

What are you talking about? I gave you his FIRST HAND account of what he learned. Basics is what he said he learned. This is not coming from second or third hand sources but from the man himself.

You can say it's code adding TK but that is just you reading into it again. Also, you are saying that his calligrapher teacher never exsisted so he is lying about being a calligrapher. Maybe he didn't do all those calligraphy drawings that are hanging in studios around the world. How could he, his calligraphy teacher never exsisted so he couldn't have learned that art. Man, have I been duped.


Mike

The official Taekyon group, the people who took Son Duk Ki's skills and turned them into a nouveau martial art, are the ones saying that they have no evidence that the calligraphy teacher he claimed taught him taekyon ever existed. And they've looked hard for him, as Young's article describes. No one in Korea ever heard of the guy. The sole 'evidence' for him is Choi's bio, and no one has been able to confirm that someone of that name even existed. Take it up with the Taekyon Research Association, Steve Capener, and Son Duk Ki himself, who had no clue about this alleged practitioner's existence, as reflected in what he says in his own book.

Now for some basic logic: saying that someone didn't learn Taekyon from a supposed calligraphy teacher is not the same as saying that they didn't learn calligraphy. I'd have thought that would be obvious, but apparently not. The general learned calligraphy. What we have no actual evidence for is that he learned it from someone who also taught him taekyon. Savvy?

And now, maybe, can we go back to the OP question? There is a clear culture of denial in TKD so far as its origins in Japanese developments of Okinawan martial arts, compared with the culture of TSD, apparently, which has happily retained a huge percentage of the forms that all but one of the Kwan founders brought back from Japan, where they learned their martial arts. Yet Hwang Kee, the one Kwan founder who never studied in Japan (though he did, we now know from his own last book, learn much of his MA background from books on Japanese karate), seems to have created a tradition which quite happily accepts the realistic characterization of the modern Korean striking arts as Korean karate. I'm curious about what the differences are, why there's this very clear contrast in attitudes. Some very interesting suggestions have been made, and I'm hoping for more input on that point. Anyone?

 

[tkd1964]

Do you know if anyone tried to ask Gen. Choi himself? He was alive until 2002, very active, not a recluse. Here's alittle help:
He(Han Il Dong) lived in the small district of Boo-Gok (8km away from the city of Mook- Ho) in Mahng Sahng township, Gauhng-Reong province.

If they didn't try to talk to General Choi, then they really weren't interested.

Mike

 

[tkd1964]

And now, maybe, can we go back to the OP question? There is a clear culture of denial in TKD so far as its origins in Japanese developments of Okinawan martial arts, compared with the culture of TSD, apparently, which has happily retained a huge percentage of the forms that all but one of the Kwan founders brought back from Japan, where they learned their martial arts. Yet Hwang Kee, the one Kwan founder who never studied in Japan (though he did, we now know from his own last book, learn much of his MA background from books on Japanese karate), seems to have created a tradition which quite happily accepts the realistic characterization of the modern Korean striking arts as Korean karate. I'm curious about what the differences are, why there's this very clear contrast in attitudes. Some very interesting suggestions have been made, and I'm hoping for more input on that point. Anyone?

I've already explained, gave you quotes from the General Himself, why he changed the forms. As for the WTF/KKW, I have no idea of their thoughts.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I will try to discover what I can regarding Tosan. It may have to be indirectly as I alas do not have the rank or position to interrogate one of the founders! I may know someone who can gently ask however. Unfortunatly these things take time.

I'm somewhat removed from the scene at the mo too sadly.

Exile, would you share what you have heard about Tosan? Alas I know nothing of it at this time.

 

[exile]

I will try to discover what I can regarding Tosan. It may have to be indirectly as I alas do not have the rank or position to interrogate one of the founders! I may know someone who can gently ask however. Unfortunatly these things take time.

I'm somewhat removed from the scene at the mo too sadly.

Exile, would you share what you have heard about Tosan? Alas I know nothing of it at this time.

Hi FD—this is the sum total of it:

In 1941, at age 7, Bok Man Kim was introduced to an ancient Korean foot-fighting art, called To-San and spent the following 9 years training daily.


(apparently based on this). And there is no cross-link in the bio entry at that point to a discussion of To San. And given the limits on Google's search capabilities, you're really screwed: Tosan, To-San and even "To San" all yield, mostly, texts containing

...to San Francisco...​

(Try it, you won't like it... )

Good luck on your search; I think it's worth pursuing—there are historical gems buried there, deep inside those discouraging trash dumpsters; but the leaders from that era are disappearing fast. There's going to be a lot that we'll never get any further with than conjecture and speculation; the more we can salvage now, the better...

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Its funny, I looked in the same places! Google certainly was less than inspiring.

The text to you which your post refers is also in his books.

 

[tkd1964]

Now Exile, in no one can find out about this To San let alone find out who his teacher was, are you going to call GM Kim a liar as you pretty much have done to Gen. Choi? And, you can't just take GM Kim's word for it.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Grr. Double post! See below....

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Now Exile, in no one can find out about this To San let alone find out who his teacher was, are you going to call GM Kim a liar as you pretty much have done to Gen. Choi? And, you can't just take GM Kim's word for it.

Well on that point I may have a very small lead.

The problem with Gen. Choi is over the years he has clearly lied about some things. This casts reasonable doubt on other things he has said.

 

[Sukerkin]

tkd, whilst your opinions are as valid as anyone elses in a Net debate, I hope you will see that it does not really advance the discussion to make pointed, practically one-liner, argumentative rejoinders to quite well structured research.

I see from your profile that you have not yet gotten around to letting us know a little more of your background - that would help the participants greatly in assessing the 'weight' of your words.

 

[exile]

Now Exile, in no one can find out about this To San let alone find out who his teacher was, are you going to call GM Kim a liar as you pretty much have done to Gen. Choi? And, you can't just take GM Kim's word for it.

I've already asked you once already to stick to topic, tkd. I'll ask you to bear that, and Sukerkin's well-phrased nudge, in mind.

I don't know what the significance of the name To-San for one of Joon Rhee's ODK hyungs is, FD, but presumably there's a reference there to BMK's 'To San'? Do you have a take on that? There's got to be a connection...

The thing is, HK seems to have been influenced by exposure to Chinese martial systems, in addition to Japanese, but it still didn't translate into denial/hostility of his followers/inheritors towards the karate (component of the) origins of TSD. There seems to have been something extra that went on in the TKD side of things that gave rise to that negative reaction...

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I don't know what the significance of the name To-San for one of Joon Rhee's ODK hyungs is, FD, but presumably there's a reference there to BMK's 'To San'? Do you have a take on that? There's got to be a connection...

The thing is, HK seems to have been influenced by exposure to Chinese martial systems, in addition to Japanese, but it still didn't translate into denial/hostility of his followers/inheritors towards the karate (component of the) origins of TSD. There seems to have been something extra that went on in the TKD side of things that gave rise to that negative reaction...

You make a very interesting point regarding Hwang Kee. I wonder whether this is why he was unpopular with the other kwan representatives during the unification talks. I consider it concievable of course that he wasnt all that unpopular with anyone but Choi, who had the power to make it seem that way. Of course that's just unfounded conjecture.

Regarding Jhoon Rhee's hyung I dont know anything about them unfortunately. Its not possible its another way of writing/pronouncing Dosan? Chang Hon forms have a Dosan, but according to Gen. Choi it is the pseudonym of the patriot Ahn Chong Ho (1876-1938) who devoted his entire life to furthering the education of Korea and its independence movement. Of course Choi didnt develop the form (but he may have named them, I dont know about this factor). Hold on, I'm gonna look in KBM's Chun Kuhn Do book, as there may be a reference to this Ahn Chong Ho...

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Hmm. Nothing there on Dosan. Or Ahn Chong Ho.

I have never sat and read all of the history in this book. It is very interesting and I will post further details later when I have had time to look at it further.

GM Kim refers to many old arts that I never heard of before but doesnt credit them with TKD as such. He mention Soo Bok and Tae Kyon and says TKD is most similar to Tae Kyon. He does talk about Japanese (and some Chinese) martial arts and how they were blended with indigenous skills to form new arts like TSD/KSD which later became TKD. He says that although they are a part, that TKD differs greatly from these Japanese arts.

Very interesting. It appears to follow the party line, but also aknowledges the foreign arts (in as much as any Korean soldier is likely to). No mention is made sadly of his own learning in this section of the book, or of To San.

 

[Errant108]

True another fact might be that they do not want to be in a position of making any one, two or three individuals to big in the grand scope of things so that the sport is directly government controlled. Meaning everyone has to go through them.

The government at the time in South Korea was a military dictatorship. I have had people tell me of receiving visits by gentlemen at night urging them to follow the party line of that era. This is why you find masters who had left Korea prior or during that time not following the 2000 year old myth. Conversely, these masters also saw their influence fade in their native country.

 

[Errant108]

General Choi did not and didn't have the power to, plus this was after the armistice, there was no fighting.

There is still fighting today on the DMZ.

 

[exile]

The government at the time in South Korea was a military dictatorship. I have had people tell me of receiving visits by gentlemen at night urging them to follow the party line of that era. This is why you find masters who had left Korea prior or during that time not following the 2000 year old myth. Conversely, these masters also saw their influence fade in their native country.

I think this is a big part of the key to my original query.... more latter....

 

[tkd1964]

tkd, whilst your opinions are as valid as anyone elses in a Net debate, I hope you will see that it does not really advance the discussion to make pointed, practically one-liner, argumentative rejoinders to quite well structured research.

.

By well structured research you mean quoting Mr. Anslow and an interview with GM Kim, that is hardly well structured. Exile printed three snippits that Mr. Anslow wrte in his book. I don't know if this was all he wrote in his book or if he has the whole article peices printed. I asked Mr. Anslow about the articles and he said he doesn't have them anymore.
As for GM Kims interview, I've read it over and over and GM Kim says Gen Choi brought up the Korean history but doesn't say that General Choi associated that to TKD. We can agree that Gen. Choi was very Nationalistic and wanted an art that the Koreans could be proud of. On the other hand, GM Kim was not Nationalistic and felt that was closedmindedness. I think we can agree that what Gen. Choi was teaching and what GM Kim was teaching were different since GM. Kimm didn't want to change to Gen. Choi's TKD. This is another reason many of the other leaders resented Gen. Choi because they felt what they were teaching(Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do) was sound and didn't need to change.

Now, on Gen. Choi's denial of his roots, again, the articles from Combat mag would be interesting to read and hopefully someone comes up with them for I haven't heard the General deny his roots. I gave quotes directly from his Bio that tell of his Karate days. Maybe Exile feels that because he changed the teachniques he's denying his roots. But what I can tell is that we can agree to disagree on this since the arguement can go on forever.
I bow out.