What kinds of KMA practitioners do we have here these days?

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

Drew Ahn-Kim. I have met your grandfather many times, and I hold the upmost respect for him. My KJN and GM AHN were childhood friends. In fact he was on the examiners table at many of my early tests in the 1980's and early 1990's. If you don't mind me asking where do you currently live and train?

I appreciate that Master Rush, my grandfather is an amazing man in dojang and outside. I'll have to ask about you, he's got a steel trap memory. Who were you masters over the years?

I currently live in London and am training at Urban Kings an MMA gym, primarily working on grappling/BJJ under Jude Samuel one of the UK's elite black belts who comes from a great lineage and has several of the major championships to his name.

I'm not at the moment training TKD on a daily basis in terms of attending classes, but I have plans to head to Cincinnati and get in some training in TKD with Grandmaster Hickey, and Hapkido and TKD Master Chuck Beyersdorfer, and a few of my Grandfather's other students.

I've really been on a bit of a quest to explore other disciplines and see what I can potentially pass along to my students should I one day open a school or at the very least train some individuals.

 

[kitkatninja]

Tang Soo Do MDK here (came from a Shotokan and kickboxing/freestyle background)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have plans to head to Cincinnati and get in some training in TKD with Grandmaster Hickey, and Hapkido and TKD Master Chuck Beyersdorfer, and a few of my Grandfather's other students.

If you're back in Cinci long enough to travel around a bit, you're invited to drive down to Lexington and visit the gym I teach and train at. Let me know you're coming and I'll cover your mat fee.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

My Kwan Jang Nim has always been Sok Ho KANG, I have been training under my Sah Bum Nim, Chuck Hannah since 1985. I'm not sure your grandfather would necessarily remember me personally, but I am sure that he has many memories of my KJN and my SBN. He used to sit on the examiners table at our promotion tests when I was a child.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I remember Master Ron Hickey from the tournament circuit from the 80's and 90's, a very nice gentlemen.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That's just what I was told by him. After looking into it, they were founded by Gen Choi, but claims to have aligned with kukkiwon in 1972. And kukkiwon was made official in 73 I think.

It'd be cool if someone posted a timeline or something.

Honestly, it's not all that unusual given historical circumstances, and technically all the Kwans are affiliated with the KKW. Gen. Choi founded the Oh Do Kwan and it became the spearhead for the development of Taekwon-Do. It was founded in 1953, shortly after the Korean War and he began referring to the martial art he was instructing as Taekwon-Do in 1955. In 1959 he became the first president of the Korea Taekwon-Do Association. In 1962 Gen. Choi was sent to Malaysia as ambassador by Park, Chung Hee (who had become president of the ROK in 1961 via a military coup). The ITF was set up to better promulgate the international spread of Taekwon-Do in 1966.

In 1972 Gen. Choi fled South Korea and settled in Toronto, Canada.

The Oh Do Kwan, which had at least one other Kwanjang since being founded was still headquartered in South Korea and the political pressure exerted by the Park regime for people to distance themselves from Gen. Choi, who was a sharp critic of Park, was considerable. In effect, Koreans could no longer be affiliated with the ITF after Gen. Choi fled the ROK for his own safety. There were Korean expats and Koreans who had become citizens of other countries who remained with the ITF, including members of the Oh Do Kwan. But the Oh Do Kwan itself was still in Korea and became part of the Kwan unification movement under the order of the Korean government.

We do have a few members of the Oh Do Kwan here on MT, both independent and, IIRC, affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well I guess we let the CMA guy start off.

I use to be a KMA guy, many years ago, but I have no idea what version, it was pre-Olympic and with Jae Hun Kim in Boston.

GM Kim was at one point affiliated with the ITF and even submitted a series of photographs for Gen. Choi's textbooks showing the speed of various techniques using strobe flashes. His punch was timed at 0.03 seconds and his front snap kick was 0.1 seconds, if I recall correctly. I believe he is now affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm a 6th dan with the ITF and this will be my 30th year training.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Xue Sheng]

GM Kim was at one point affiliated with the ITF and even submitted a series of photographs for Gen. Choi's textbooks showing the speed of various techniques using strobe flashes. His punch was timed at 0.03 seconds and his front snap kick was 0.1 seconds, if I recall correctly. I believe he is now affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris

Thanks, this would have been back in the late 70s

 

[HanmudoJohn]

Hammudo student here. I started Hammudo when it was in it's infancy in 1990. We where a Hapkido/Kuk sul school under Dr He Young Kimm. After founding Hammudo we branched off to learn and teach Hammudo with Hammudo technique curriculum but still using Kuk sul forms. I received 1st Dan in 1997 at 17, to be one of the first Black Belts awared to my age group. Before that Dr Kimm was not a fan of "kids" with black belts. Anyway, 19 years later I am training under GM Serio. I have training in western boxing, Muay Thai, Kuk Sul, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. Most recently I have had the privilege to train Haidong Gumdo as well. I love KMA. I feel it does not receive the respect it deserves... Thank yall for having me here

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[Earl Weiss]

That's unusual, given that the Oh Do Kwan, founded by Gen CHOI, Hong Hi, was the birthplace of the ITF.

IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF / KKW TKD in 1973 or so.

A quick internet search only reveals typical history starting from 1973 onward. I think there is a mention of it in general Choi's Bio as a training center. So, a connection to KKW from ODK is not that unusual. However, there are maany misnomers out there. Met some who claim they do CDK (Because their founder was CDK) but in reality they do the Chang Hon forms.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So Far found this

"Though, the term ‘Kukki’ is now synonymous with the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters - built in 1972) and WTF (World Taekwondo Federation - founded in 1973), the term was used much earlier, in relation to Taekwon-Do, by General Choi Hong Hi, when in 1965, he named his travelling demonstrations of Taekwon-Do the ‘Kukki Taekwondo Goodwill Tour’. A tour incidentally sponsored by the South Korean Government!"

Academy of Taekwon-do - Martial Arts Training In Harrow and Pinner

 

[chrispillertkd]

IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF / KKW TKD in 1973 or so.

A quick internet search only reveals typical history starting from 1973 onward. I think there is a mention of it in general Choi's Bio as a training center. So, a connection to KKW from ODK is not that unusual. However, there are maany misnomers out there. Met some who claim they do CDK (Because their founder was CDK) but in reality they do the Chang Hon forms.

Master Weiss, Gen. Choi mentions in his autobiography having the initial plans for the Kukkiwon drawn up in 1967 while the ITF had been formed in 1966. I am unsure of the exact date of the KKW's completion but it was the site of the WTF's first WC in 1973, IIRC.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF / KKW TKD in 1973 or so.

I do not believe this is really correct. The Kukkiwon was founded in 1972, and the WTF in 1973. Both well after the founding of the ITF. Perhaps you're thinking of the KTA, which was an earlier group that eventually spawned the KKW. General Choi was affiliated with the KTA for a time, but I do not think he ever had any connection to the KKW or the WTF.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So Far found this

"Though, the term ‘Kukki’ is now synonymous with the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters - built in 1972) and WTF (World Taekwondo Federation - founded in 1973), the term was used much earlier, in relation to Taekwon-Do, by General Choi Hong Hi, when in 1965, he named his travelling demonstrations of Taekwon-Do the ‘Kukki Taekwondo Goodwill Tour’. A tour incidentally sponsored by the South Korean Government!"

Academy of Taekwon-do - Martial Arts Training In Harrow and Pinner

Kukkiwon means "national gym" and the word "kukki" can be correctly applied to many many contexts other than TKD. While some may well shorten "kukkiwon" to kukki, this would be an incorrect usage, since the word means, basically, "nation" or "national." The name of the goodwill tour basically indicates that the team doing the tour is meant to represent the country, rather than an individual school.

 

[Raymond]

I trained privately/one-on-one with an instructor who was a third dan in TKD under an instructor who was 9th dan in TKD, HKD and 6th dan in Judo. My instructor's GM's bio says he was Moo Duk Kwan but I can't confirm as I have not met him (my instructor moved away to where he is now).

My instructor is not affiliated with any group or organization and does not teach Taeguk or Palgwe forms to kyu ranks and uses a unique set of forms. After Dan gradings he teaches Taeguk forms. For the past several years he has not taught at a school but only privately/one-on-one.

Even though my dan certificate says TKD I typically am uncomfortable calling myself a TKD person since I am not affiliate/recognized by major orgs and I did not officially learn either of the major form sets. Also, he teaches much self defense from HKD and what I learned from him looks and feels more like a blended system of his own (he also had Goju-ryu influences as he trained it for a long time too).

 

[paitingman]

Kukkiwon means "national gym" and the word "kukki" can be correctly applied to many many contexts other than TKD. While some may well shorten "kukkiwon" to kukki, this would be an incorrect usage, since the word means, basically, "nation" or "national." The name of the goodwill tour basically indicates that the team doing the tour is meant to represent the country, rather than an individual school.

Some teams and individuals call it kukki taekwondo in reference to this

which reads "Kukki Taekwondo" dated 1971, when the president declared taekwondo the national sport. A lot of people have this hanging in their schools. Earlier uses of the term may reflect the same idea of the "nations taekwondo" though before it was a set style like wtf or itf.

nowadays kukki taekwondo as a term now references "the national sport-taekwondo"/"the style that is national sport" i.e. WTF Taekwondo.

 

[Gnarlie]

Up until at least 1996, Kukkiwon were calling it Kukki Taekwondo too, see the Textbook published in 96:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oQGBuzDxL._SL500_SX338_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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[Dirty Dog]

Yes, I was incorrect to state that "Kukki TKD" was an incorrect usage, especially when I pointed out in the same post that "kukki" could be used to prepend any number of nouns. And since the kukkiwon is sanctioned, endorsed and controlled by the South Korean government, it's certainly reasonable to say it's the national TKD.

None of which changes the fact that the WTF is not a style of TKD, but merely a governing body for a specific ruleset used for a subset of competition.
Look at the WTF website. They clearly define themselves as a sport governing body, not a style.
There are no WTF schools.
The only members of the WTF are the National Associations governing Olympic competition appointed by the Olympic Committee for that country.
There are no procedures for awarding rank.
There are no standards for curriculum.
There are no training programs for instructors (only referees...).
Notice that in their publications (for example, HERE), participants are referred to as athletes or players. Not as Martial Artists.
What is used in WTF competition is a tiny subset of the art of Taekwondo. The WTF does not pretend to be a style.

 

[Gnarlie]

Agree - these are facts. The WTF, soon to be rebranded 'World Taekwondo', regulates their competition sparring and their Poomsae competition including judging standards. Nothing to do with syllabus or grading standards for KKW, except for KKW students being expected to show an awareness of current competition techniques and standards. Beyond that, the KKW syllabus goes way further as a martial art.

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