Have the good fighters left TMA?

[mrt2]

When I started with Tang Soo Do back in 1979, on my first day, there were several people in the dojang working on their sparring. One guy in particular was really good, and at the time, he was only a green belt. He went on to become a master at multiple martial arts and now owns a chain of studios on the east coast. Reading through his bio recently, I was reading how he came to Tang Soo Do because as a teenager, he was getting in a lot of fights, and needed the structure of MA. In other words, he was already a good fighter.

My view is, back then, people studied traditional martial arts for different reasons, but at least some started learning how to be better fighters. Maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 people came to Tang Soo Do already having some aptitude for fighting. These people stuck around for the other benefits, health, well being, discipline, but they also became the school's rock stars at tournaments, and leaders in class.

I am wondering if this cohort goes right into other styles that dispense with forms, meditation, oaths, leaving traditional martial arts with holdovers from the old days, and not many people who even want to learn how to fight. And, I am wondering if traditional martial arts is worse off for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some have. Some haven't. There are more options today than there were in 1979 (both in TMA and in other avenues like MMA), so they are more dispersed. The mainstream public has joined into MA more since the late 70's, too, from what I see. That means there are more people involved in TMA who aren't so interested in their fighting skills, which further dilutes the population of fighters in TMA.

 

[drop bear]

There are Martial arts where you kind of have to be a good fighter and ones where it doesn't matter.

So if in Tang soo do school there is no requirement to be good. Then there is less likely to be any good fighters.

Which in turn makes everyone else less of a fighter.

And good is practically good on the mat. Not mystical good in some street fight nobody saw.

 

[jobo]

When I started with Tang Soo Do back in 1979, on my first day, there were several people in the dojang working on their sparring. One guy in particular was really good, and at the time, he was only a green belt. He went on to become a master at multiple martial arts and now owns a chain of studios on the east coast. Reading through his bio recently, I was reading how he came to Tang Soo Do because as a teenager, he was getting in a lot of fights, and needed the structure of MA. In other words, he was already a good fighter.

My view is, back then, people studied traditional martial arts for different reasons, but at least some started learning how to be better fighters. Maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 people came to Tang Soo Do already having some aptitude for fighting. These people stuck around for the other benefits, health, well being, discipline, but they also became the school's rock stars at tournaments, and leaders in class.

I am wondering if this cohort goes right into other styles that dispense with forms, meditation, oaths, leaving traditional martial arts with holdovers from the old days, and not many people who even want to learn how to fight. And, I am wondering if traditional martial arts is worse off for it.

I think you answered your own question, I suspect there's the same number of good experience fighters about now as then, but not enough to make a chain of Dojos and all the other chains of dojo profitable,

It's had to be watered down\ softened up or mR slightly over weight and very unfit wouldn't be coming back next week if someone punched him on the nose. There no condo in Florida in that

 

[Buka]

I'm not sure. But there might be a lot more good fighters out there than we know of. I mean, if you're not competing you won't see other people who are. Even if you are competing, not all good fighters do.

If you aren't dojo hoping you won't see anyone. If they ain't dojo hopping they probably won't stop in your dojo.

Hopefully, good fighters are alive and well in all the arts.

 

[mrt2]

I think you answered your own question, I suspect there's the same number of good experience fighters about now as then, but not enough to make a chain of Dojos and all the other chains of dojo profitable,

It's had to be watered down\ softened up or mR slightly over weight and very unfit wouldn't be coming back next week if someone punched him on the nose. There no condo in Florida in that

There wasn't enough good fighters back in 1979, and as far as I recall, even then, it was a minority of practitioners who were good fighters. But that number was maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, and having to face these good fighters regularly made the rest of us better.

 

[mrt2]

Some have. Some haven't. There are more options today than there were in 1979 (both in TMA and in other avenues like MMA), so they are more dispersed. The mainstream public has joined into MA more since the late 70's, too, from what I see. That means there are more people involved in TMA who aren't so interested in their fighting skills, which further dilutes the population of fighters in TMA.

More dispersed, for sure. Consider this. Why, back in the day did people sign on for MA? Popular culture shaped the perception no doubt. Put another way, we watched Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, or Jackie Chan, and we wanted to fight like those guys. We found out it wasn't that easy, but some of us stayed on and continued.

So, who are the fighters young people want to emulate today? I would wager a lot of them are professional MMA fighters.

 

[jobo]

There wasn't enough good fighters back in 1979, and as far as I recall, even then, it was a minority of practitioners who were good fighters. But that number was maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, and having to face these good fighters regularly made the rest of us better.

That sound like plenty, the whole world has got softer since then, Realistically only 10% of the population can be called" good"

 

[Flying Crane]

The past is always remembered as having been better than the present. Always.

 

[hoshin1600]

There wasn't enough good fighters back in 1979, and as far as I recall, even then, it was a minority of practitioners who were good fighters. But that number was maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, and having to face these good fighters regularly made the rest of us better.

Maybe that perception of not many good fighters back in 79 is based on who you surrounded yourself with.

I would agree with the premise that MMA draws the guys that want to fight more than TMA.

 

[JR 137]

How many dojos were in your area back in ‘79? That has something to do with it.

In my area during the late 60s-early 70s, according to a lot of people, there were 2 dojos - 1 judo and 1 Kyokushin dojo. And they were packed wall to wall with students. Both schools reportedly easily had over 1,000 students.

The guy who started the Kyokushin dojo was a top Judo student who saw a Kyokushin demo, and decided to travel to NYC once a week to train in it. He’d take a bus there (3 hour ride each way), train all day and come home the same night. Then he’d do it again the following week. After several years of that he was allowed to open his own dojo. When Mas Oyama came to the US, one of the first things he asked was to meet the guy who travels 3 hours each week to learn karate.

Since then, countless dojos have opened and closed. Up until the late 80s or so, just about every dojo owner trained at one or both of those schools; if not they trained under one of those CI’s students. Now there’s countless dojos in the area. In my 8 minute ride from home to the dojo I pass by 2 MA schools. If I veer of course, I’ll pass by another one. If I go from work to the dojo (about a 15 minute drive), I could probably count at least 10 MA schools within a few blocks of my route.

Simply put, there’s far more options. When that happens, the talent pool at any one school gets diluted. If there’s only one basketball team in the area, the coach has a ton of people show up and he’s got everyone who’s anyone to choose from. If there’s 20 teams in the area, the best players are typically going to be on several different teams. An area all-star team would do great, but individual teams might only have one or two really good standouts.

Besides, karate and the rest of the MA aren’t really just about fighting and SD, for the reasons stated in so many threads

 

[Buka]

Maybe that perception of not many good fighters back in 79 is based on who you surrounded yourself with.

I would agree with the premise that MMA draws the guys that want to fight more than TMA.

I agree, but some of that might have to do with $$.

 

[drop bear]

I agree, but some of that might have to do with $$.

There is very little money in fighting.

 

[Headhunter]

No but most traditional fighters aren't famous simply because they don't want to be. Just because you're famous doesn't mean you're not a good fighter

 

[_Simon_]

I would say no. You can find what you're after in MA, you just have to look. There are many clubs around, with different emphases, and there are still clubs out there who train for the purpose of fighting.

I'd say peoples' needs change, and yeah I guess this convo has happened a bit here as to what MA is. But there are gonna be people who want to preserve what they believe MA to mean to them, and those who want it to be about fighting will have their way of teaching etc. So good fighters are still out there, just because they aren't in the spotlight it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Yeah it's funny that, if people want to train to fight then there are people out there you can do that with I'm sure. To focus on what you're doing and not the next person/dojo/style is important here.

 

[Danny T]

I think there are a lot of good fighters out there that don't really fight.
Not everyone who trains with me are fighters but many can fight well. Some not so much but we are working on it with them. Will they ever be 'good'...??? Probably not.
I have several who could be decent pro fighters if they wanted to be but they aren't. They could be excellent amateur fighters but they aren't. They just enjoy training. I know of others I've trained with at other events who are the same.
And what is the standard for good anyway? Compared to some I am a good fighter. Compared to most of the fighters I coach these days I'm not.These days I'm a lot better at making other thinks I can kick their *** than having the ability to actually do so.