Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?
- Thread starter Mr. President
- Start date
I find this totally hilarious. If you go to Korea, like I said before, you will not find any other style of tkd except kkw tkd! The Olympic movement took over any other form of tkd was absorbed or dissolved.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
That is largely the case. Our dojang is a bit of an enigma, as we teach adults only.
If you have a point to make, make it
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Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
jks9199
Asst. Administrator
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
jks9199
Asst. Administrator
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
you sort of made my point for me.
lets put it this way, the irony of someone from a sport only application, and one with a dubious reputation at best when it comes to self defense value making statements about other people not knowing much about "combat" could rip a hole in the fabric of space/time
the fact that the person making said statement isnt old enough to even go in a bar much less get in a bar fight is almost funny..
i am gonna clue you up Buddy
in the real world bad guys almost always try to knock you down and or out by throwing a haymaker at your head.
THAT is the reality of combat
now this is totally off topic, but you brought it up, so it would be rude not to address it. Olympic boxing isnt considered a joke because it is still boxing. Olympic TKD resemsbles nothing else on the planet. And there is nothing martial art-y to it, to anyone watching that isnt already familiar with it
thats sort of the whole problem in public perception with olympic tkd in the first place
it isnt anything people can look at and recognize as a legitimate martial art.
Not trying to be rude, but you DID ask....
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Ninety percent of what I do is spar. Even KKW-style sparring still forces one to deal with timing, distance and positioning which is far more important than whether or not you're allowed to punch to the face. I've said that before and I stand by that, my experience has never showed me otherwise.
You're gonna have to find some other way to try and discredit me I'm afraid. 19 is the drinking age in Canada.
Implying a different opinion suggests ignorance is hardly the best tactic here. I don't remember suggesting you were an idiot.
Believe it or not, I've had that happen to me. I dealt with it just fine. It's not that different from dealing with being kicked, which I have done quite literally millions of times. Against 20 something well conditioned athletes who can actually fight. Makes a 40 something bar slob pretty easy to deal with.
I have friends who teach boxing. None of them think very highly of Olympic boxing.
Ive also never had anyone maintain the position that I couldn't fight after sparring with me, so take that for what it's worth.
You are trying to be rude, actually, or at least trying to be condescending. It's ok, I don't hold a grudge.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i am actually trying to be polite, but i am not very good at it.
look, i LOVE to spar, i think it is prob the single most important part of training for self defense. But it has to be smart sparring, and simply put, WTF sparring doesnt impress me. At All. I do not find it helpfull in regards to training you for self defense. And that is what sparring is for to me. Self defense, not sport. For the sport you are training for, i am sure it is the perfect tool
Now that is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth, which isnt much.
But the simple fact is you made a pretty outlandish statement, and it amused me. Now, you are doing a little bit of bragging, but thats ok, i did when i was 20 too
you will learn, just like we all did.
look, i LOVE to spar, i think it is prob the single most important part of training for self defense. But it has to be smart sparring, and simply put, WTF sparring doesnt impress me. At All. I do not find it helpfull in regards to training you for self defense. And that is what sparring is for to me. Self defense, not sport. For the sport you are training for, i am sure it is the perfect tool
Now that is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth, which isnt much.
But the simple fact is you made a pretty outlandish statement, and it amused me. Now, you are doing a little bit of bragging, but thats ok, i did when i was 20 too
you will learn, just like we all did.
WTF sparring at a dojang is not like WTF sparring at the Olympics. The difference is like you or I playing football for fun and the Super Bowl. At the highest level, the style that works the best is the one you're thinking of, which looks goofy and impractical to non sport guys. It kind of reminds me of ippon-style karate sparring. For the guys who are training for fun and for local tournaments or whatever (me included, outside of my interest in coaching), it looks a lot like it would have 20 years ago when we were still a GM Park school, maybe a little more counter based. That's probably part of our divide here and something that just occurred to me.
I wasn't trying to play myself up, or attack you personally. Being talked down to is a pet peeve of mine so yeah, you bruised my ego a little bit. I still don't think not punching the face discredits the ruleset as a training tool for self defense.
Kframe
Black Belt
edit double post.
Kframe
Black Belt
No need for the attitude, or the childish challenge. You are stating opinions as facts. I have apparently read a lot on these forums, and I do know how real combat works. That does not change the things I have observed. Im sorry that the only Tkd I have observed, out side of one apparently rare case of good instruction, have all been abysmall failure. I have never, ever seen any tkd out side of my father, use there hands in any meaningfull way. Sorry, but if you have proof, put it up. Secondly, That video is one of many I have found showing tkd lacking in any form of takedown defense. Unless im not using proper search peramiters in youtube. I have yet to see anything online that would change my mind. if you know of any post them. I want to see examples of tkd actually using there hands in a meaningfull way, actually holding there hands in a way that can effect some kind of defense of there upper body and head, and above all not getting taken down.
Kframe
Black Belt
Thought It add this in. Since im doing mma, we do a lot of sparring of various flavors. I can tell you, the practicing your defenses against the air, and on the focus mits, are one thing, doing them against someone trying to hit you is way different. It took me, many sparring sessions before I could even beginner to effect my punch and striking defense in any meaningfull way. That for me proves that you need to actually be punched, in a serious way that involves some kind of pressure. That for me is a inescapable fact, you need to do your defense work not only in air drills, but with pressure, and with someone actually trying to hit you. I have seen it a bunch of times, like when a wtf Tkd bb competitor joined our gym. For me, ETinCTQX that is where your argument falls apart. This guy, was a good wtf black belt. Problem is, in sparriing, I was able to get inside, and it was over for him. He had no idea how to defend punches up close. IT would only take a few, before he turtled up and coach called the session. Sure if he can keep me at range he wins, but after a short while I learned how to deal with his long range tactics. So ya, my personal experience with it, is what is forming my opinions, as they are based in personal experience. I have said it before, but I find it odd my father is the only tkd I have met that can fight at range(his preference) and up close(were most of his SD fights took place) and can use his hands in meaningfull ways. Even his combat stance is different then most tkd stances I have seen.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
This isn't exactly accurate. There are now some ITF schools in South Korea and have been for about 10 years or so. The ITF in SK is growing but it is and will always be smaller than the KKW/WTF there for a variety of reasons. The fact is, however, there are at least some people in Korea who aren't sold on the KKW and the Olympic movement.
Pax,
Chris
No attitude. I don't feel any need to prove my point with YouTube videos because everything I've said is backed up by my own experience in taekwondo, judo and bjj.
Where your hands are is largely irrelevant. Not getting hit is what is relevant.
This is the same issue I've been over before. You don't need to know how to do everything. A standup fighter should be able to use his striking to keep a grappler from taking him down by controlling distance and positioning. Same way a grappler should be able to win his fight by closing distance and taking down the striker. You need an understanding of distance, positioning, and timing, and skill in the range you choose to have skill in. That's all.
I've been sparring full contact more or less since I started training, so have most of the kkw people here. Full contact sparring is a big part of the style. Can't remember the last time I did anything in the air. Most KKW guys don't kick the air or practice blocks in the air because its counter productive. Hitting focus mitts is worthwhile, but for different reasons than sparring is.
Like I said, I've been sparring for my entire MA life and I'm not unique there. All KKW practitioners spar. I'm one of the biggest advocates of alive training on this board. In fact the cornerstone of my training philosophy is dealing with pressure, not punches and kicks. I'm glad you see the value in pressure, it's important.
A lot of KKW people, especially those attracted to full contact fighting, try and fight the way they see in the Olympics. That's a particular style that's dominant at that high level, which is all long range and counter based.
KKW sparring for your average Taekwondo practitioner doesn't and shouldn't look like that. There is no clinching to wait for the ref to break it up, no 2 minute standoffs where nothing happens. I can remember doing clinch work as a kid while sparring, I don't think that's unique either.
The other side of your anecdote there is that MMA is a sport with a different ruleset than wtf sparring tournaments. He was lost when tossed into a new sport with new rules, just like you would be in a TKD match.
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I find that if you go on anecdotes, such as your experience with the black belt, everyone in every art has several that demonstrate their art's superiority or another art's inferiority. It just serves to reinforce my opinion that no art is better or worse, but that they all have their strong points and they all have practitioners of varying levels.
Incidentally, one of our black belts at the school where I trained had a friend who did MMA. I don't know what his level was, but he came to visit and train with us occasionally. He had a hard time fighting in the WTF rule set. After class we did some pick up matches and some of us sparred with him under a more open rule set. I enjoyed it. He was darned good, but I was able to adapt to him. But I've been practicing since the late seventies. On the other hand, one of our top guys in competition (he was a second dan with a total of three years in) had a lot of trouble with him. After a while, he adapted, but it was very challenging for him. It was a fun experience for all involved, but it definitely illustrated what a difference the environment makes.
A comment on the "WTF black belt:" You don't mention his actual grade (ildan, yidan, samdan, sadan, ohdan, etc.), so I am assuming that he is an ildan (first dan). A first dan in KKW/WTF taekwondo is essentially a novice. They've learned the beginning material. From first to second, they're honing their practice and instead of learning eight forms in twelve to twenty four months, they learn one and practice those that they've learned. They practice more than one type of sparring, the most recognizable being what is seen in the Olympics. Contrast that to a BJJ blackbelt, which takes many years to attain. Same color piece of cloth, but they represent very different amounts of time in their respective arts.
It takes a long time to develop a good taekwondoin. Other posters here, such as Twin Fist, who train in schools where a black belt is not awarded until two to three times longer (four to six years) essentially say the same thing; a year to two years is not enough to develop a strong fighter in taekwondo. It is enough to develop proficiency in the basics, which is what a KKW black belt represents, but not a strong fighter.
Training in an MMA, wrestling, or boxing gym will develop a strong fighter in far less time because that is essentially all that they're doing, while taekwondo encompasses a lot of elements in addition to fighting (forms, breaking, and sometimes there is a level of Korean culture, which varries from school to school). That isn't a value judgement; having more or less is not inherently better. It really depends on what you're tring to get out of the class.
If I was looking to be a strong competitive fighter quickly, particularly if I wanted a more handsy set of tournament rules, I would not enrole in a taekwondo school, at least not KKW. If I want to be a strong fighter and go to the Olympics, and specifically want to do taekwondo, I would be very choosy in where I train, finding the schools that do the best in tournaments, evaluating the level that the instructors may have reached in tournaments. Did they go to the Olympics? Are they local, regional, state, or national champions? Out of probably over two hundred schools in the DC metropolitan area, Maryland and Northern Virginia, there would only be a handful of schools that would meet that need. The rest are commercial schools that cater to kids and families.
On the other hand, if all I want is a class where I go in, get a good work out, mingle with people in a friendly environment, and maybe enjoy the activity with my kids, and have little to no interest in competitive fighting, a lot of taekwondo schools are available to meet that need.
While we may all have our moments of falling short (myself included), being polite, particularly on the internet, isn't hard. It is something that you either do or do not do. Unlike face to face communication, where it isn't what you say but how you say it, in a typed medium, it really is what you say. This post evinces that you can be polite, or at least reasonably civil.
As this isn't IM, you can edit and adjust and rewrite your post many ways and many times prior to posting it.
Edit: and you can also go back a few minutes afterward if you see something you missed.
If you're unsure, read it back as being directed at you. If you would find it rude or impolite coming from someone else, then chances are you need to do some tuning.
With regard to physical defense, I am inclined to agree with you.
In terms of it being representative of a self defense scenario, I agree; it isn't helpful.
There are elements however that are helpful; conditioning, flexibility, timing, movement, distance management, and kicking ability, as well as some degree of punching ability depending on the fighter.
A skilled practitioner can see past the specific techniques and use their skills to apply the principles successfully against fighters with different backgrounds. The same goes for boxing which has no kicks and grappling arts which have no strikes. I've had kendo students who have zero hand to hand experience defend themselves successfully by applying the principles that they learned in kendo, though I am not at all inclined to call kendo a self defense art.
Getting to that point takes time, an amount that differs from person to person, and a lot of training both inside and outside of the studio. But it is that point that, in my opinion, every instructor should strive to bring their students to.
I think that it goes without saying that athletes gear their training to the type of environment in which they compete. It does not necesarilly follow that that competition training is the only training that a person engages in. Most of us who practice the martial arts for any length of time tend to get outside of our own circles from time to time.
We all make outlandish statements from time to time. You and I included.
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Kframe
Black Belt
ETinCyqx I understand about sparring in a new rule set environment. I understand that, but It was a more open ruleset we were sparring under. Only a few rules. I felt at the time, and now, that he should have been able to apply the other parts of the art that he had learned. If tkd does truly teach hand techs and defenses for hand techs and throws and takedowns, then I wonder about the quality of his instruction. Im just saying that, ya he could deal with pressure to a point but, the moment it got close, he turtled. I was shocked by it. I then changed how me and him sparred. We would work on specific things. Like I would start up close and he would work only his defense with me punching from mid to close range. Then next round he would work long range kicks so I could practice getting close. He was the best sparring partner I have had. I was sad to see him move out of state. So my question is, why was he nearly unable to deal with sparring in a more open rule set if such rules only serve to allow him to use the rest of his skills?
Kframe
Black Belt
Daniel, my new gym is focused on Self defense, so we don't train for rulsets. I personally feel that boxing+grapling with a lil kicking(I only know a few) makes for a GREAT unarmed selfdefense skillset. My coach also is trained in knife and counter knife(both armed and unarmed thanks to the military) on top of our striking and grappling(both standing and ground). He is even making arrangements for a local Judo club to come and train with us. Which imho Is fracking awesome, because I would love to learn some new throws and polish the ones I know now. I don't expect a tkd or anyone else, to learn the entire art of jjj or judo, inorder to not get taken down, or how to survive there and get to there feet. I just feel that, you need to actually train there so you don't get lost, and atleast know how to escape from the ground so you can get back to you feet. Having said that, I watched that video again, and all he had to do to avoid being shot down, was move either rearward(not optimal) or to the side.(optimal) He just stood there and didn't move, that was his mistake, his over confidence in him self.
Ha ha ha...That guy sucked. Simple as that. Again even at my advanced age I would welcome someone to attempt to misjudge me based on me practicing TKD. There are so many people doing TKD that are not good that think they are good that they go out and make fools of themselves. Go into any TKD school and you will only find 1 maybe 2, and if your lucky 3 people that are any good. What I mean by any good is that they are fighters, regardless of TKD. TKD is an art for everyone. And when you get as many people doing it as many schools have, most of them are simply there for exercise or an activity. They would not or could not fight no matter what art they do. Simple as this, fighters fight and will be good at fighting no matter what style of art they do. Fighters are tough, can take as much as they give and will adapt to the situation. Sadly many people that do TKD that are not fighters, think they are but find out the hard way that they are not fighters. Same can be said for many in all the other arts too. Not every person doing MMA is good or even OK for that matter. I have seen many MMA, BJJ, Boxing and so on fights that are just as lopsided, but no one ever says man that MMA style sucks when they lose also against a better fighter. Just that most people see things a little myopic is all. Open your eyes people, there are a ton of sucky people doing every art.
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