Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Jaeimseu]

I think maybe we forget sometimes that most people are not like us. By us I mean people posting on a martial arts forum. The fact that someone is here and feels confident enough to participate/contribute here sets them apart from other MAists. We are exposed to a wider variety of info related to MA than most students who may get all of their info from their own local instructor. No matter what we disagree about, we all have that in common.

 

[Metal]

please don't take this the wrong way but on what grounds do you criticize Ralph? Because you, personally, think she should know about wtf sparring, that makes it a critical thing to know?

Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.

And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.
It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)


As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant. At one point they'll go to YouTube and type in Taekwondo and will wonder why there's so much stuff that's different from what they're doing. At one point they'll meet other people who're practising Taekwondo and will wonder why those people are doing things differently.

about a completely different style? Maybe but why should she be able to answer? I wouldn't be able to answer questions on ITF sparring.

It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence.

You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.

Ok, so do you know anything about Judo? It's the same question.

When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.

And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.
It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)


As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant. At one point they'll go to YouTube and type in Taekwondo and will wonder why there's so much stuff that's different from what they're doing. At one point they'll meet other people who're practising Taekwondo and will wonder why those people are doing things differently.






It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence.

You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.





When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)

my daughter doesnt wear head gear, rarely wears a hogu, we dont wear v kneck uniforms, our sparring looks vastly different to wtf sparring, we wear boxing gloves, we never spar for points and our sparring is about 50/50 punches to kicks. You may think wtf is easily recognisable, but to my daughter it isnt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.

There is no WTF style of taekwondo. The WTF is not a style. The WTF sets no standards. It does no rank testing. It awards no rank. WTF tournament sparring is just one subset of Kukkiwon taekwondo.

So apparently it's not as easy to know what you're watching as you seem to think.

 

[Cyriacus]

One: Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV.

Two: And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.
It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)


Three: As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant.

Four: It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence.

Five: You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.

Six: When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)

One:
Pure speculation. If anything its no different to showing how radically different various Karate systems are. Though for the life of me, if it werent for the big "ITF TAEKWONDO *Korean Words*" on the back of ITF uniforms, as a person who used to train ITF, i couldnt tell the difference between Shotokan Color Belt Competitions and ITF Color Belt Competitions. Unless i see a throw on the Shotokan side, because i watch them on youtube. I didnt need someone to educate me.

Two:
So, now you only need to be aware of the WTF because its a big thing and because its easier to distinguish? So tell me: Does a WTF/KKW practitioner need to learn enough about the ITF to be able to recognise it, due to it being easy to recognise without the uniforms with the big "ITF TAEKWONDO" logos on the back, or does this only apply to the WTF?

As a slight cut in, i dont remember Ralph saying anything about 'traditional' Taekwondo. Given how recently it came about, id argue that the idea of Taekwondo being traditional is highly subjective.

Three:
Ignorant by your standards, maybe. I researched other Martial Arts because i wanted to know about them. She obviously hasnt even tried to look, or shed already know of her own volition.

Four:
I refer back to my Karate reference. You cant pick and choose when to apply what defines ignorance within your overarching 'style' just because its easier or harder. And since were bringing up roots, Taekwondo practitioners of all ways shapes and forms should have to learn to recognise Shotokan Karate as well.
Just as all Shotokan Karate practitioners should learn to recognise Kung Fu. Unless we pick and choose were we apply this belief to only apply when its easy.

Another cut in. The WTF are not the only organisation that wear Hogu. At this point, were getting to the stage were you see kick volleys, techniques, and figure it out that way.

Five:
Refer back to one. As a former ITF person, i couldnt tell the difference between the ITF and Shotokan Karate without either seeing a throw, or reading the logo on the uniforms. I wouldnt be able to do either of those things if no throwing took place, and both wore plain uniforms.

Six:
I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?

 

[Metal]

There is no WTF style of taekwondo. The WTF is not a style. The WTF sets no standards. It does no rank testing. It awards no rank. WTF tournament sparring is just one subset of Kukkiwon taekwondo.

So apparently it's not as easy to know what you're watching as you seem to think.

When it comes to Taekwondo competition you can clearly say 'WTF style' in order to distiguish it from other forms of TKD competition (like ITF sparring for example). The WTF is regulating the competition ruleset, not the Kukkiwon.

Actually you don't even need to hold a Kukkiwon Dan in order to compete at WTF events and the WTF can indeed award rank:

http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/competition.html

"Article 4 Contestant
[...]
1.3 Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF"

 

[Dirty Dog]

When it comes to Taekwondo competition you can clearly say 'WTF style' in order to distiguish it from other forms of TKD competition (like ITF sparring for example). The WTF is regulating the competition ruleset, not the Kukkiwon.

You can say lots of things. That doesn't mean they're correct.

Actually you don't even need to hold a Kukkiwon Dan in order to compete at WTF events and the WTF can indeed award rank:

http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/competition.html

"Article 4 Contestant
[...]
1.3 Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF"

The WTF experimented with issuing Dan ranks, briefly. As I recall, the requirement for a WTF belt was earning a KKW belt. They no longer do this, but will still grandfather in the handful of people who got them.

 

[Metal]

You can say lots of things. That doesn't mean they're correct.



The WTF experimented with issuing Dan ranks, briefly. As I recall, the requirement for a WTF belt was earning a KKW belt. They no longer do this, but will still grandfather in the handful of people who got them.

National governing bodies of the WTF can still issue their own dan certificates and do so.


When it come to sparring/competiton part of TKD:

Olympic TKD style = WTF style = Kukkiwon style


When it comes to Taekwondo in general:

Kukkiwon style ≠ WTF style ≠ Olympic TKD style

 

[Dirty Dog]

National governing bodies of the WTF can still issue their own dan certificates and do so.

In which case you hold a Dan rank from that governing body, NOT the WTF. And you'll still need to get the KKW certificate to compete in WTF-sponsored events.

 

[Metal]

One:
Pure speculation. If anything its no different to showing how radically different various Karate systems are. Though for the life of me, if it werent for the big "ITF TAEKWONDO *Korean Words*" on the back of ITF uniforms, as a person who used to train ITF, i couldnt tell the difference between Shotokan Color Belt Competitions and ITF Color Belt Competitions. Unless i see a throw on the Shotokan side, because i watch them on youtube. I didnt need someone to educate me.

Two:
So, now you only need to be aware of the WTF because its a big thing and because its easier to distinguish? So tell me: Does a WTF/KKW practitioner need to learn enough about the ITF to be able to recognise it, due to it being easy to recognise without the uniforms with the big "ITF TAEKWONDO" logos on the back, or does this only apply to the WTF?

As a slight cut in, i dont remember Ralph saying anything about 'traditional' Taekwondo. Given how recently it came about, id argue that the idea of Taekwondo being traditional is highly subjective.

Three:
Ignorant by your standards, maybe. I researched other Martial Arts because i wanted to know about them. She obviously hasnt even tried to look, or shed already know of her own volition.

Four:
I refer back to my Karate reference. You cant pick and choose when to apply what defines ignorance within your overarching 'style' just because its easier or harder. And since were bringing up roots, Taekwondo practitioners of all ways shapes and forms should have to learn to recognise Shotokan Karate as well.
Just as all Shotokan Karate practitioners should learn to recognise Kung Fu. Unless we pick and choose were we apply this belief to only apply when its easy.

Another cut in. The WTF are not the only organisation that wear Hogu. At this point, were getting to the stage were you see kick volleys, techniques, and figure it out that way.

Five:
Refer back to one. As a former ITF person, i couldnt tell the difference between the ITF and Shotokan Karate without either seeing a throw, or reading the logo on the uniforms. I wouldnt be able to do either of those things if no throwing took place, and both wore plain uniforms.

Six:
I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?

Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.

It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.

And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

my daughter doesnt wear head gear, rarely wears a hogu, we dont wear v kneck uniforms, our sparring looks vastly different to wtf sparring, we wear boxing gloves, we never spar for points and our sparring is about 50/50 punches to kicks. You may think wtf is easily recognisable, but to my daughter it isnt.

Personally, I suspect that unless you practice a particular style or have had exposure to it through friends or family, picking it out from amid a sea of styles whose uniforms look, to the uninitiated, pretty much the same, would be a challenge for anyone. If I did not post here or take an active interest in knowing about MA other than my own, I doubt that I would be able to I.D. BJJ as distinct from Judo. There are enough uniform variations within an art, and for non practitioners, they all look pretty much the same.

You may have said previously, but what style of TKD do you and your daughter practice?

 

[Cyriacus]

Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.

It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.

And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)

Details are whats relevant. Ignoring them is ignorance.

I know what you originally stated. What do you think im talking about?
And yeah, all you need to do is show an interest in the art you practice. Then look it up online and find different arts that go by the same name that have nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with your training.
So, is this about the Olympics, specifically? Is your rank in TKD influenced by your knowledge of Olympic sports? Does that make you better at doing your own thing, or is rank about knowledge of things that have nothing to do with you?

 

[ETinCYQX]

Six:
I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?

If I count, Kodokan is the system and IJF is a sport governing body. Much like Kukkiwon and WTF.

 

[Cyriacus]

If I count, Kodokan is the system and IJF is a sport governing body. Much like Kukkiwon and WTF.

I executed a technique known as the 'trick question', to see if he knew that. I planned on pointing that out later, but nows as good a time as any.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.

It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.

And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)

I suppose that it depends on what you think of being first geub/first dan. If you're holding up a first dan black belt as being a minimum of four years, no kids allowed, and as an exemplar of the art, then I would agree with your perspective.

But in Kukki taekwondo, a first dan is essentially a certificate of completion of the beginner class. In Korea, the time to ildan is one year. It simply is not that big a deal.

Also, for most people, unless you practice it or have exposure through a friend or a family member, the Olympics might be the only time you'd see shihap kyorugi, so it isn't as if non KKW/WTF practitioners or non practitioners in general are going to see enough of it to be familiar with it. Most people also lack the incentive to go looking it up on the web.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I suppose that it depends on what you think of being first geub/first dan. If you're holding up a first dan black belt as being a minimum of four years, no kids allowed, and as an exemplar of the art, then I would agree with your perspective.

But in Kukki taekwondo, a first dan is essentially a certificate of completion of the beginner class. In Korea, the time to ildan is one year. It simply is not that big a deal.

Also, for most people, unless you practice it or have exposure through a friend or a family member, the Olympics might be the only time you'd see shihap kyorugi, so it isn't as if non KKW/WTF practitioners or non practitioners in general are going to see enough of it to be familiar with it. Most people also lack the incentive to go looking it up on the web.

I totally agree with this. In America, at least, I think Taekwondo is most often something that you or your kids do two or three times a week. For most, it's not a way of life, or even the most important event of the day. It's just one activity of many. People who are driven to compete at a higher level or motivated to search out deeper information about their own Taekwondo system or others are not the norm, at least in my experience.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I totally agree with this. In America, at least, I think Taekwondo is most often something that you or your kids do two or three times a week. For most, it's not a way of life, or even the most important event of the day. It's just one activity of many. People who are driven to compete at a higher level or motivated to search out deeper information about their own Taekwondo system or others are not the norm, at least in my experience.

From what I understand, in Korea taekwondo is like baseball and is mostly for kids and teens. Adults leave it behind unless they're competitors, coaches, or instructors.

In the US, I also see a lot of longtime martial arts practitioners who start in taekwondo and move into other arts from there. Some come back to it, others find an art that is a better fit for them, but it was taekwondo that got them started in the first place.

 

[Kframe]

Edit to add, my keyboard is messed up, please forgive my massive wall of text. If a mod could fix it id be greatfull. For me Olympic tkd was another nail in the coffin. As I have stated in other posts, since I was a kid(31 now) I wanted to do Tkd like my father did. It wasn't till recently that my situation improved to were I could do full time MA. So I started researching tkd and were to train. That's when I started finding videos of TKD guys getting smashed by various other styles in full contact matches, aka MMA style. That's when I first encountered this video.

That video and the many others I found, all showcased the same things to me. 1 Tkd could not punch or use there hands in any meaningfull way. 2. they all fight with there hands down and attempt not defense of the upper body and more importantly the head. 3 tkd does not teach take down defense. The final nail for me was when I attended my first mma gym and they head coach was a 2nd dan wtf tkd. He had abandon all tkd except for a few kicks and some of the foot work. He added in boxing and bjj. In fact he wont even teach most of the kicks he knows and refuses to teach any kind of deflecting.(aka "blocking") That for me ended my search for a tkd school, so I could do it like my father. IT sad because my dad was in many self defense fights, and used his tkd effectively. Its tobad I cant find the level of quality teaching he was able to receive. Its sad for me, its like watching a dream fade away, because I know ill never be able to trust it even if I did find that mythical tkd school with quality instruction in all ranges of unarmed combat, including takedown defense. So I have come up with a plan. Im currently learning what my new coach calls combative jujitsu. Its Japanese jujitsu, and we also do boxing/kickboxing and standing grappling as well. After I get my blackbelt then ill consider joining a local tkd school, knowing that getting taken down isn't going to screw me. Sure no one on the street wants to get taken down but you need to be ready for it and be able to deal with being there.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Ok, since you've apparently read less than nothing on these boards so far, you're more than welcome to try and take me down or punch me in the face.

People who get stuck on "they don't punch the face" have no real understanding of combat, at all.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It might say that Ralph's school is a little isolated. Maybe?

Hmm, that's not really the impression I've gotten from his posts.

Pax,

Chris